Dr. Gary Holloway is a Bible Scholar and Dean of the College of Bible and Ministry at David Lipscomb University located in Nashville, Tennessee.  Dr. Holloway visited recently in the New Life Station's Studio "B" with KNLS English Service Host, Mike Osborne.   Please note the copyright notice at the bottom of this page.  

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DR. HOLLOWAY, PART ONE

WELCOME, RADIO FRIENDS. GLAD YOU COULD JOIN US FOR THIS ENGLISH LANGUAGE TRANSMISSION FROM THE NEW LIFE STATION, KNLS. THIS IS MIKE OSBORNE, YOUR HOST FOR THE BROADCAST AND AS I PROMISED YOU AT THE BEGINNING OF THE HOUR WE HAVE A SPECIAL TREAT NOW AS WE ARE JOINED HERE AT THE STUDIO WITH DR. GARY HOLLOWAY. DR. HOLLOWAY IS A BIBLE SCHOLAR AND DEAN OF THE COLLEGE OF BIBLE AND MINISTRY AT DAVID LIPSCOMB UNIVERSITY IN NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE. WE CERTAIN APPRECIATE YOUR TAKING TIME TO VISIT WITH US.

MIKE: DR. COCHRAN WE CERTAINLY APPRECIATE YOUR TAKING TIME TO VISIT WITH US TODAY.

DR. HOLLOWAY: THANKS. IT’S GREAT TO BE HERE.

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY IS GOING TO BE WITH US FOR THE NEXT SEVERAL DAYS DURING OUR ENGLISH LANGUAGE BROADCAST HERE ON STATION KNLS, A SERIES OF DISCUSSIONS THAT I HAVE VERY MUCH BEEN LOOKING FORWARD TO AND I THINK THAT YOU, OUR LISTENING FRIENDS, WILL ENJOY. ALL OF US AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER HAVE PONDERED THE MEANING OF LIFE AND DR. HOLLOWAY IS HERE TO NOT PERHAPS ANSWER THAT QUESTION DEFINITIVELY, BUT AT LEAST PUT OUR FEET ON THE PATH TO HELPING EACH OF US ANSWER THAT QUESTION FOR OURSELVES. PERHAPS I CAN SAY THE MEDIUM FOR THAT DISCUSSION IS A LOOK AT THE BIBLE BOOK CALL “ECCLESIASTES” ONE OF THE OLD TESTAMENT BOOKS OF THE BIBLE. DR. HOLLOWAY HAS WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT ECCLESIASTES ENTITLED “THE MAIN THING, A NEW LOOK AT ECCLESIASTES”, SO HE IS CERTAINLY WELL QUALIFIED TO TALK WITH US ABOUT THIS BOOK. DR. HOLLOWAY BEFORE WE GET TALKING ABOUT THE BOOK OF ECCLESIASTES, I’D THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE A GOOD IDEA FOR YOU TO TAKE A MOMENT AND INTRODUCE YOURSELF TO OUR LISTENING FRIENDS, PERHAPS TALK A BIT ABOUT YOUR EDUCATION AND PROFESSIONAL BACKGROUND AND MAYBE ALSO INTRODUCE US TO YOUR FAMILY.

DR. HOLLOWAY: YES. I’VE BEEN A TEACHER ALL OF MY LIFE; I’VE TAUGHT NOW FOR 21 MAYBE 22 YEARS. I’VE TAUGHT FOR 12 YEARS AT THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AT DIFFERENT SCHOOLS. I’VE TAUGHT BIBLE, DIFFERENT, RELIGION COURSES, AND TAUGHT ON THE COLLEGE LEVEL FOR 7 OR 8 YEARS AND HAVE ONLY RECENTLY COME HERE TO NASHVILLE AND HAVE TAUGHT THE LAST 2 YEARS AT LIPSCOMB. MY TRAINING SEEMS LIKE I’VE BEEN IN SCHOOL ONE WAY OR ANOTHER FOR ALL OF MY LIFE, SO I DO HAVE A DOCTOR’S DEGREE FROM EMORY UNIVERSITY IN ATLANTA. I’M HAPPILY MARRIED, HAVE ONE WIFE AND NO CHILDREN. IT’S GREAT AGAIN TO BE HERE AND IT’S GREAT TO TALK TO YOUR LISTENERS TODAY.

MIKE: YOU MENTIONED EARLIER THAT THIS POSITION “DEAN OF THE COLLEGE OF BIBLE AND MINISTRY” IS A NEW POSITION. TELL US ABOUT THAT.

DR. HOLLOWAY: YES. WE’RE MAKING SOME SIGNIFICANT CHANGES AT LIPSCOMB. WE’RE A GROWING SCHOOL AND IT WAS DECIDED BY OUR NEW PRESIDENT, STEVE FLAT, THAT WE SHOULD MOVE TO A COLLEGE ARRANGEMENT AS IT IS CALLED. SINCE WE ARE A UNIVERSITY, YOU HAVE DIFFERENT COLLEGES THAT ENCOMPASS DIFFERENT SUBJECTS. FOR THE SAKE OF ORGANIZATIONAL EFFICIENCY, IT WAS DECIDED TO HAVE A COLLEGE OF BIBLE AND MINISTRY ALONG WITH OTHER COLLEGES. SO I’M NEWLY APPOINTED DEAN. I’M NOT SURE WHAT THAT MEANS. I THINK I’VE SIGNED ON FOR A JOB THAT I DON’T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT WILL LOOK LIKE.

MIKE: LET’S BEGIN TALKING ABOUT THIS BIBLE BOOK CALLED ECCLESIASTES. CAN YOU INTRODUCE OUR LISTENING FRIENDS TO THIS BOOK? IT CERTAINLY IS NOT ONE OF THE BOOKS THAT EVEN IN THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY IS WIDELY STUDIED. TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS BOOK.

DR. HOLLOWAY: IF YOU HAVE EVER READ YOUR BIBLE AND GOTTEN TO ECCLESIASTES, I THINK IT IS A VERY STRANGE BOOK. IT IS STRANGE IN ITSELF AND PARTICULARLY STRANGE IN THE BIBLE. IT’S STRANGE BECAUSE IT LACKS OF WHAT YOU FIND IN OTHER BOOKS OF THE BIBLE. THERE IS CERTAINLY MENTION OF GOD HERE, BUT THERE IS REALLY NOT MENTION OF WHAT YOU FIND ELSEWHERE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT; THERE ARE NO SACRIFICES IN ECCLESIASTES, NO PRIESTHOOD. THERE IS VERY LITTLE COMMENT ABOUT SIN; THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF COMMENT ABOUT LIFE AND VERY IMPORTANT ISSUES. SO IT’S DIFFERENT IN THAT WAY. IT’S DIFFERENT BECAUSE SOME AFTER THEY READ IT THINK ECCLESIASTES IS A VERY PESSIMISTIC BOOK. I DON’T THINK THAT’S TRUE IF YOU PROPERLY UNDERSTAND THE BOOK. BUT THERE ARE SOME WHO ARE DRAWN TO THE BOOK BECAUSE OF IT’S PROFOUND LOOK AT LIFE AND THERE ARE OTHERS WHO ARE SOMEWHAT REPULSED BY IT BECAUSE IT DOESN’T GIVE EASY ANSWERS TO THE MEANING OF LIFE.

MIKE: ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN TELL US ABOUT THE AUTHORSHIP OF THIS BOOK? PERHAPS SOMETHING ABOUT IT’S STRUCTURE AND PERHAPS A WORD ABOUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE THE BOOK’S INTENT AND PURPOSE IS?

DR. HOLLOWAY: IT’S A MYSTERIOUS BOOK IN RESPECT TO AUTHORSHIP AS WELL AS BEING STRANGE IN IT’S CONTENT. THE AUTHOR NEVER IDENTIFIES HIMSELF BY NAME. THERE IS ONE PASSAGE EARLY IN THE BOOK WHERE HE CALLS HIMSELF SON OF DAVID. SO SOME HAVE SAID WELL THAT MUST BE SOLOMON. BUT IN THAT SAME CHAPTER, HE TALKS ABOUT HOW HE HAD MORE WISDOM THAN ALL WHO WERE IN JERUSALEM BEFORE HIM. TO ME, AT LEAST, IT DOESN’T SOUND LIKE SOLOMON. THERE WEREN’T THAT MANY KINGS IN JERUSALEM BEFORE SOLOMON. SO THAT ANSWER IS WE’RE NOT SURE WHO WROTE THE BOOK. WE KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT HIM – HE’S A KING, HE’S WEALTHY, HE HAS TIME TO DO WHAT WE MAYBE WOULD LIKE TO DO – ALL THE TIME AND ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD TO EXPLORE THE OPTIONS OF LIFE. ECCLESIASTES IS A WISDOM BOOK, USUALLY PUT WITH PROVERBS AND JOB IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. AS A WISDOM BOOK, IT IS NOT EXACTLY ORGANIZED THE WAY THAT WE TEND TO ORGANIZE THINGS IN THE MODERN WORLD. HE TENDS TO STICK WITH ONE TOPIC FOR A WHILE, GO TO ANOTHER, GO TO A THIRD AND GO BACK TO ONE OF THE EARLIER TOPICS. BUT I REALLY THINK THAT IF SOMEONE SAYS ECCLESIASTES IS PESSIMISTIC, THAT THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES IS REALLY BETTER DESCRIBED AS A REALIST. HE CAN LOOK AT BOTH THE PAIN AND THE PLEASURE OF LIFE. HE DOESN’T GIVE THOSE EASY ANSWERS. HE DOESN’T FLINCH FROM THE DIFFICULTIES OF LIFE, BUT AT THE SAME TIME HE HAS A TRUST IN GOD IN SPITE OF WHAT HAPPENS IN LIFE.

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY, THAT CERTAINLY IS ONE OF THE MOST REMARKABLE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE BIBLE . IT IS A BOOK THAT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH EVERYDAY, ORDINARY LIVING AND LIFE. CAN YOU ADDRESS THAT FOR JUST A MOMENT?

DR. HOLLOWAY: YES. I THINK THERE ARE SOME WHO MISTAKENLY THINK THAT CHRISTIANS ALWAYS CAN GIVE EASY ANSWERS – ARE HAPPY AND CHEERFUL ALL DAY LONG, THEY’RE SHALLOW PEOPLE. BUT IF YOU READ THE BIBLE YOU FIND THAT PEOPLE OF FAITH ACTUALLY ARE PEOPLE AS WE ARE WHO HAVE DIFFICULTIES, SOMETIMES SEVERE DIFFICULTIES. BUT IN SPITE OF THAT, THEY KEEP THEIR TRUST IN GOD. SO I THINK THE Writer OF ECCLESIASTES IS TELLING US TO PUT OUR TRUST NOT IN ALL THOSE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT WE TEND TO PUT OUR TRUST IN. HE IS NOT GIVING US IN ONE SENSE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS OF LIFE, NOT THOSE ANSWERS WE LIKE. INSTEAD HE’S POINTING US BEYOND THIS WORLD TO GOD WHO ULTIMATELY IS THE ANSWER. AND OF COURSE BY DEFINITION IF GOD IS GOD, WE CAN’T COMPLETELY FIGURE HIM OUT EITHER. WE SIMPLY HAVE TO TRUST HIM.

MIKE: ONE OF THE CHARGES THAT IS SOMETIME MADE IS “DON’T CONDEMN OUR LIFE STYLE BECAUSE YOU YOURSELVES HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED IT.” I KEY IN ON SOMETHING THAT YOU SAID A FEW MOMENTS AGO. THE AUTHOR OF THIS BOOK FROM WHAT HE WRITES APPARENTLY HAD EXPERIENCED ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT LIFE HAD TO OFFER, BOTH POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE. SO THIS PERSON WRITES FROM THE VIEWPOINT OF EXPERIENCE.

DR. HOLLOWAY: CERTAINLY. HE HAS WHAT SOME OF US DON’T HAVE – THE TIME, THE MONEY, POWER. WE THINK SOMETIMES IF WE HAVE THOSE THINGS WE COULD BE HAPPY, WE COULD DISCOVER THAT LASTING JOY THAT SOMEHOW ELUDES US. SO HE TRIES ALL KINDS OF THINGS. HE TRIES PLEASURE AND SAYS THAT REALLY DOESN’T QUITE GIVE YOU MEANING IN LIFE. HE TRIES ACCOMPLISHMENT. ALL THOSE THINK THAT AGAIN WE TRY AND NONE OF THEM REALLY SATISFY HIM. AT THE END OF THE BOOK HE SAYS YOU REALLY FIND MEANING IN GOD. SOME HAVE SEEN THAT LAST CHAPTER IN ECCLESIASTES AS IF IT GOES AGAINST THE FIRST PART OF THE BOOK. SOME HAVE SAID HE MIGHT HAVE EVEN ADDED IT LATER. THE CHAPTER THAT SAYS, “ALL HAS BEEN HEARD, FEAR GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS”. BUT I REALLY THINK IT FITS WITH THE REST OF ECCLESIASTES. HAVING TRIED IT ALL, THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES COMES BACK TO GOD. GOD IS WHERE WE FIND MEANING IN LIFE.

MIKE: THE REVERSE OF THAT IS PERHAPS A BIT MORE HOPEFUL NOTE FOR OUR LISTENERS IN THAT REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY FIND THEMSELVES IN LIFE, REGARDLESS WHAT THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES, REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY MAY HAVE GONE TO LOOK FOR HAPPINESS AND NOT Found IT. THERE IS STILL SOME HOPE FOR THEM YET.

DR. HOLLOWAY: THAT’S TRUE. AGAIN I FIND ECCLESIASTES TO BE A VERY HOPEFUL BOOK. BUT IT’S ALMOST AS IF HE INTENTIONALLY KNOCKS ALL THOSE PROPS OUT FROM UNDER US THAT WE TRY TO GIVE MEANING AND PERMANENCE TO OUR LIVES TO SAY THERE IS NOTHING PERMANENT HERE. ONE OF HIS FAVORITE PHRASES IS “LIFE IS VANITY, AS SOME TRANSLATIONS SAY, OR EMPTINESS, OR LIFE IS WORTHLESS.” IT’S AN INTERESTING METAPHOR; IT’S THE WORD IN HEBREW FOR A MIST, A VAPOR, A SHADOW, A FOG. SO HE’S SAYING THAT IF YOU TRY TO GRASP LIFE AND THE MEANING OF LIFE ON YOUR OWN IT’S LIKE TRYING TO CARRY FOG IN YOUR HAND, YOU JUST CAN’T QUITE GET THERE. SO HE POINTS US AWAY FROM THAT TO GOD AS THE ANSWER.

MIKE: OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL DAYS, WE’RE GOING BE SHARING WITH OUR LISTENING FRIENDS SOME PORTION OF ECCLESIASTES. SOME OF THE PLACES THAT THIS AUTHOR WENT LOOKING FOR HAPPINESS AND THE MEANING OF LIFE. CAN YOU SHARE WITH OUR LISTENING FRIENDS BEFORE WE LET YOU GO TODAY? SOME OF THE PLACES THAT WE’RE GOING TO GO AND LOOK AT THE WEEK PROGRESSES?

DR. HOLLOWAY: EVEN THOUGH THIS IS A VERY ANCIENT BOOK AND IN THAT SENSE IT MAY SEEM STRANGE TO US, TOO. I FIND ECCLESIASTES A VERY CONTEMPORARY BOOK AT THE SAME TIME BECAUSE AT LEAST HERE IN THE WEST IF YOU LOOK AT OUR ADVERTISEMENTS THAT PROMISE (AGAIN HAPPINESS) THEY TEND TO MAKE THE SAME KIND OF PROMISES THAT THE WRITE OF ECCLESIASTES FOUND WERE MADE IN HIS DAY. SO SOME SAY ALL YOU REALLY NEED IS A NEW EXPERIENCE, WE PRIZE NOVELTY, TIRED OF THE SAME OLD THING. THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES WILL SAY BUT THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN, NOVELTY DOESN’T BRING US HAPPINESS. WE MAY THINK, AGAIN, PLEASURE IF WE COULD JUST HAVE ANYTHING WE WANTED AND DO ANYTHING WE WANTED TO DO AND ALWAYS FEEL GOOD, THEN WE’D BE HAPPY AND WE WOULD FIND MEANING. BUT THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES SAYS HE TRIED HAPPINESS, TOO. HE HAD TIME AND MONEY TO TRY IT AND GIVE IT A REALLY GOOD TRY. BUT THAT DIDN’T BRING HIM THAT LASTING JOY THAT IT PROMISED. WITH THAT WE COULD TALK ABOUT MONEY. THE CLICHÉ IS “MONEY DOESN’T BUY HAPPINESS”. I THINK, AT LEAST IN MANY CULTURES, WE THINK WE CAN RENT IT FOR A WHILE. IT CAN MAKE US HAPPY FOR A WHILE. THE WRITE OF ECCLESIASTES SAYS HE TRIED ALL THAT HE COULD TRY AS FAR AS WEALTH AND WHAT IT WOULD BUY AND THAT DIDN’T BRING HIM HAPPINESS. ALONG THE WAY, THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES DOES POINT UP SOME THINGS THAT BRING WHAT HE CALLS SMALL JOYS. THIS DOESN’T BRING THE BIG ANSWER TO THE MAIN QUESTION OF LIFE, BUT THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT WE FIND IN OUR LIFE THAT BRING US JOY. HE TALKS ABOUT FRIENDSHIP, AND AGAIN THAT DOESN’T ANSWER ALL OUR PROBLEMS, IT’S NOT AS IF THE MEANING OF LIFE IS FOUND IN FRIENDSHIP. BUT HE DOES SAY THERE IS A SMALL JOY IN FRIENDSHIP, A TRUE JOY. THE SAME WAY WITH MARRIAGE, HE TALKS ABOUT ENJOYING LIFE WITH THE WIFE OF YOUR YOUTH. BUT WE TRY, I THINK SOMETIMES, TO FIND HAPPINESS IN OTHER PEOPLE. HE SAYS THERE IS SOME JOY THERE, BUT THERE’S NOT THAT LASTING FINAL HAPPINESS THAT WE FIND IN GOD. HE TALKS ABOUT OTHER THINGS ALONG THE WAY. BEING CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY. AGAIN WE SOMETIMES BELIEVE IF WE COULD JUST GET THE WORDS RIGHT IN LIFE THAT WE COULD HAVE HAPPINESS. HE TALKS ABOUT THAT SENSE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT THAT WE ALL REALLY WANT. IN THOSE FEW TIMES WHEN WE TALK OUT LOUD OR EVEN TALK TO OURSELVES ABOUT OUR LIVES AND DOES MY LIFE COUNT FOR ANYTHING OR WILL I BE REMEMBERED WHEN I’M GONE. WHAT WE REALLY THINK WILL LAST IS WHAT WE ACCOMPLISH HERE IN LIFE, WHATEVER SHAPE THAT TAKES, OUR FAMILY, OUR CHILDREN, HAVING BUILDINGS NAMED AFTER US, WRITING BOOKS, BEING ON THE RADIOS THAT WILL MAKE US REMEMBERED. HE REMINDS US THAT EVEN THOSE WHO ARE THE BEST AT WHAT THEY DO, THEY DON’T ALWAYS SUCCEED. ULTIMATELY GOD IS IN CONTROL AND THE REMINDER TO US AND THIS IS THE MAIN POINT OF ECCLESIASTES IS WE ARE NOT IN CONTROL AS MUCH AS WE WOULD LIKE.

MIKE: WE CERTAINLY APPRECIATE THAT PREVIEW AND WE WILL LOOK FORWARD TO YOU INTRODUCING US TO EACH OF THOSE TOPICS AS THE WEEK PROGRESSES. FOR OUR LISTENING FRIENDS, LET ME MENTION THAT WE ARE RECORDING ALL OF OUR VISITS WITH DR. HOLLOWAY ON AN AUDIO CASSETTE TAPE AND WOULD BE PLEASED TO SEND THAT TO YOU FREE AND WITHOUT OBLIGATION. ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS WRITE TO US HERE AT STATION KNLS, ANCHOR POINT, ALASKA 99556 USA. ALSO WE HAVE A LIMITED NUMBER OF DR. HOLLOWAY’S BOOK CONCERNING THE BIBLE BOOK OF ECCLESIASTES, ONCE AGAIN THE TITLE “THE MAIN THING, A NEW LOOK AT ECCLESIASTES”. AND WE WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO SEND A COPY TO THE FIRST FOLKS THAT WRITE FOR THAT. YOU CAN ALSO REACH US VIA THE INTERNET. OUR E-MAIL ADDRESS IS KNLS@AOL.COM. DR. HOLLOWAY, WE APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US TODAY AND LOOKING FORWARD TO VISITING WITH YOU AGAIN TOMORROW.

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DR. HOLLOWAY, PART TWO

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY, WE CERTAINLY APPRECIATE YOUR TAKING TIME TO BE WITH US THIS WEEK. IT IS VERY KIND OF YOU.

DR. HOLLOWAY: IT’S GOOD TO BE BACK WITH YOU.

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY, YESTERDAY AS WE BEGAN OUR DISCUSSION OF THE BIBLE BOOK CALLED ECCLESIASTES. YOU POINTED OUT TO US THAT ONE OF THE PURPOSES OF THIS BOOK IS TO TRY TO DETERMINE THE MEANING OF LIFE AND SO OVER THE DAYS TO COME WE ARE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT MANY OF THE PLACES THAT THOSE OF US WHO LIVE OUR LIVES LOOK TO OR PLACES WE GO TO IN SEARCH OF HAPPINESS AND A MEANING TO LIFE.. ONE OF THE PLACES THAT WE AS INDIVIDUALS GO TO LOOK FOR MEANING IN LIFE AND CERTAINLY HERE IN THE WEST AND U.S. IS IN NOVELTY, IN NEW THINGS, TRYING NEW THINGS. WE ARE PEOPLE OF FADS, ESPECIALLY HERE IN THE UNITED STATES WE JUST KIND OF WONDER FROM ONE FAD TO THE NEXT. MANY HOPE THAT THEY WILL BRING THEM HAPPINESS, BUT LIKE THE AUTHOR OF ECCLESIASTES THEY FIND VERY LITTLE LASTING HAPPINESS OR JOY THERE.

DR. HOLLOWAY: THIS WHOLE QUESTION I THINK OF THE MEANING OF LIFE MAY STRIKE SOME LISTENERS AS A QUESTION THAT ONLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE A LOT OF TIME ON THEIR HANDS CAN ASK. I THINK THAT ALL OF US STRUGGLE WITH “DOES MY LIFE COUNT FOR SOMETHING?” WHAT IS THE MAIN THING AS THE BOOK TITLE SAYS IN LIFE. AND YOU’RE RIGHT, HERE MANY TIMES IN THE WEST, BUT I THINK PROBABLY IN ALL CULTURES WE LONG FOR SOME NEW EXPERIENCE, OR SOME NEW THING. THE FACT IS THERE IS SOME JOY THAT’S NEW, WHETHER WE’RE TALKING ABOUT NEW CLOTHING, FOOD WE HAVEN’T TRIED, NEW POSSESSIONS. HERE IN AMERICA WE HAVE THIS DISEASE SOMETIMES CALLED NEW CAR FEVER, THE OLD CAR WORKS JUST FINE, BUT YOU SEE THE NEW ONE AND IT’S SO SHINY. THE OLD ONE HAS KIND OF BEEN WORN OUT SOMEHOW, AGAIN IT MAY RUN WELL, BUT IT DOESN’T HAVE THAT THRILL OF NEW ANY MORE. AGAIN, OUR CULTURE PARTICULARLY CHASES AFTER THE NEW. WE HAVE A WHOLE INDUSTRY HERE IN AMERICA, THE ADVERTISING INDUSTRY, THAT TRIES TO CONVINCE US THAT WE’LL A BIT HAPPIER, MAYBE A GREAT DEAL HAPPIER, IF WE JUST HAD THIS NEW PRODUCT THAT THEY HAVE COME OUT WITH. IN AMERICA THE WORD “NEW” IS ALWAYS A GOOD WORD, WHICH I THINK DOES MAKE US DIFFERENT FROM OTHER CULTURES AND MAYBE IMPOVERISHED COMPARED TO OTHER CULTURES. HERE TRADITION IS USUALLY THOUGHT OF AS A KIND OF BAD WORD, WE DON’T WANT TO DO THE SAME OLD THING WE’VE DONE BEFORE. AGAIN HERE IN AMERICA ALL YOU HAVE TO DO TO SELL MORE PRODUCT IS PUT THE LABEL “NEW” ON IT. NEW AND IMPROVED, IN AMERICA, THOSE TWO WORDS KIND OF ALMOST ALWAYS GO TOGETHER. AND SO I THINK EVEN THOUGH WE MAY NOT REFLECT ON THIS VERY OFTEN, A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE IF I COULD JUST HAVE THIS NEW THING OR MAYBE JUST A NEW EXPERIENCE, I’D REALLY FIND HAPPINESS IN LIFE.

MIKE: THE AUTHOR OF ECCLESIASTES APPARENTLY HAS THOSE SAME EXPERIENCES. HE ALSO WENT LOOKING FOR NEW EXPERIENCES AND OBVIOUSLY, AS YOU MENTIONED, HAD THE TIME AND THE RESOURCES TO DO THAT RIGHT. TO DO IT UP WELL. WHAT DID THE AUTHOR OF ECCLESIASTES DISCOVER ABOUT THAT?

DR. HOLLOWAY: WHAT HE DISCOVERED, I THINK MANY PEOPLE WOULD FIND SURPRISING BECAUSE WE BELIEVE ENOUGH TIME AND ENOUGH RESOURCES WITH A NEW EXPERIENCE EVERY DAY OR MAYBE EVERY HOUR, OR FOR THAT MATTER, EVERY FEW MINUTES THEN WE’D ALWAYS BE HAPPY, FULFILLED AND NEVER BE BORED. BUT HE HAD THE MONEY AND THE TIME TO TRY EVERYTHING NEW AND WHAT HE SAYS IS SURPRISING. HE SAYS THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN, THAT A RECURRING REFRAIN IN ECCLESIASTES. I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE TODAY SAY, “WHAT DO YOU MEAN, THERE IS NOTHING NEW, WHAT CAN HE MEAN BY THAT?” BUT IN OUR SANER MOMENTS, THAT WE HAVE SOMETIMES, AND MAYBE THE OLDER WE GET, I’M NOT EXACTLY AN OLD MAN, BUT I’M IN THAT MIDDLE AGE PERIOD, I’VE COME TO FIND AND AGREE WITH ECCLESIASTES THERE IS NOT MUCH IF ANYTHING REALLY NEW UNDER THE SUN. TODAY LOOKS A LOT LIKE YESTERDAY AND MY GUESS IS TOMORROW WILL LOOK A GREAT DEAL LIKE TODAY. THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES TALKS ABOUT HOW THE RAIN COMES DOWN AND GOES INTO THE RIVER AND IT FLOWS INTO THE SEA AND KIND OF STARTS ALL OVER AGAIN. SO NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE SEARCH FOR NEW EXPERIENCES, THERE IS A SANENESS ABOUT LIFE; THOSE NEW CLOTHES DON’T STAY NEW VERY LONG. IT’S NOT SO MUCH THAT THEY GET WORN OUT SOMETIMES, AS THEY LOSE THAT THRILL OF BEING NEW. SO THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES SAYS MEANING IS NOT TO BE FOUND IN SOMETHING THAT’S NEW.

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY, FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE HAD THOSE EXPERIENCES, FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE CHASED AFTER WHAT IS NEW AND EXCITING AND FOUND VERY LITTLE JOY OR COMFORT THERE, CAN THE BOOK OF ECCLESIASTES OR THE BIBLE IN GENERAL OR YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A CHRISTIAN POINT US IN A DIRECTION WHERE WE CAN FIND SOME LASTING VALUE?

DR. HOLLOWAY: I THINK THE MESSAGE OF SCRIPTURE IS THAT GOD LOVES US, THAT HE WANTS US TO ENJOY HIM FOREVER AND BE WITH HIM FOREVER THAT HE SENT HIS OWN SON, JESUS, SO THAT WE MIGHT BE WITH HIM FOREVER. AND YET HERE IN THIS LIFE GOD CALLS US REALLY TO A LONG OBEDIENCE IN THE SAME DIRECTION. THAT IS A THRILL, IT’S A THRILL OF A DIFFERENT SORT THAN LOOKING FOR WHAT’S NEW. IT IS THAT THRILL OF, AGAIN, DAILY OBEDIENCE, OF WORDS LIKE “DISCIPLINE” WHICH AGAIN IN MANY CULTURES DOESN’T SOUND VERY THRILLING AND YET IT’S THAT DISCIPLINE, IT’S THAT ENDURANCE IN FAITH THAT BRINGS US CLOSE TO GOD AND GIVES US A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. AGAIN THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES DOESN’T REALLY LEAVE US IN DESPAIR AS IF WE’RE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR THE NEW AND IT NEVER COMES. INSTEAD, WE FIND IN OTHER PASSAGES OF SCRIPTURE THAT NEWNESS, WHAT IS TRULY NEW, COMES ONLY FROM GOD WHICH IS AN INTERESTING CONCEPT. OUR PROBLEM IS NOT SO MUCH THAT WE LOOK FOR HAPPINESS IN WHAT IS NEW, BUT THAT HERE ON EARTH THERE ISN’T ANYTHING NEW, IT REALLY IS THE SAME OLD THING ALL OVER AGAIN. I GUESS WE MIGHT EVEN SAY THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN THE SAME OLD NEW THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. BUT GOD PROMISES, BOTH IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW TESTAMENT, THAT HE WILL MAKE A NEW WORLD AND GIVE HIS PEOPLE A NEW COVENANT WITH HIM THAT EVENTUALLY THERE WILL BE EVEN A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH AND THAT NEWNESS IS FOUND, AGAIN, IN GOD AND GOD ALONE.

MIKE: LET ME PUT YOU ON THE SPOT AND ASK YOU IF SOME OF OUR LISTENING FRIENDS SHOULD DECIDE THAT THEY WANT TO LEARN A BIT MORE ABOUT THAT NEW LIFE AND THAT NEW EXPERIENCE OF OBEDIENCE TO GOD. WHERE WOULD YOU POINT THEM AS A BEGINNING PLACE FOR THEM TO START THAT JOURNEY?

DR. HOLLOWAY: YES, I’D BEGIN WITH READING ONE OF THE GOSPELS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, THE STORY OF JESUS, FOUND IN MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE AND JOHN. I GUESS THE ONE THAT I GRAVITATE TOWARD IS LUKE, I’M NOT SURE WHY. DIFFERENT CHRISTIANS WILL TELL YOU THEY HAVE A FAVORITE GOSPEL, BUT ANY ONE OF THEM WILL TELL YOU THAT STORY. IT’S SIGNIFICANT THAT JESUS HIMSELF CAME AS SOMETHING NEW. AGAIN, IF YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE SOMETHING GENUINELY NEW IT HAS TO COME FROM OUTSIDE OUR WORLD, IT HAS TO COME FROM GOD HIMSELF. SO AS GOD IN THE FLESH, SON OF GOD, JESUS CAME AND DID NEW THINGS AND I THINK THAT’S WHY HE WAS SO MUCH MISUNDERSTOOD. THE PEOPLE OF HIS DAY KNEW WHAT RELIGION LOOKED LIKE AND THE KNEW WHAT A RELIGIOUS LEADER , A MESSIAH SHOULD LOOK LIKE AND JESUS CAME AND HE SURPRISED THEM BECAUSE HE REALLY WAS SOMETHING NEW. YOU MAY REMEMBER JESUS AT ONE POINT EVEN PROMISED THAT HE WAS THAT NEW THING THAT WAS TO COME AND TALKED ABOUT HOW NEW WINE IS NOT FOR THOSE OLD WINESKINS, BUT NEW WINESKINS, A NEW WAY OF THINKING. SO THERE’S SOME TRUTH ACTUALLY IN ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT WAYS THAT THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES TRIED TO FIND HAPPINESS. THERE’S SOME TRUTH THAT THERE’S HAPPINESS OF WHAT IS NEW, BUT NOT IN AN EARTHLY SENSE ONLY IN THAT NEW THING WHICH IS GOD HIMSELF. THAT NEW COVENANT, THAT NEW AGREEMENT, THAT NEW DEAL THAT GOD MAKES WITH US THROUGH JESUS, THE ONE WHO TRULY MAKES THINGS NEW.

MIKE: I KNOW OUR LISTENING FRIENDS APPRECIATE YOUR MAKING THAT SUGGESTION AS A PLACE TO BEGIN AND LET ME THANK YOU FOR VISITING WITH US AGAIN TODAY AS WE EXPLORE THE BIBLE BOOK CALLED ECCLESIASTES AND THE MEANING OF LIFE. WE LOOK FORWARD TO VISITING WITH YOU SOME MORE AS THE WEEK PROGRESSES.

DR. HOLLOWAY: AGAIN, IT’S ALWAYS GOOD TO BE HERE.

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DR. HOLLOWAY, PART THREE

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY, WE CERTAINLY APPRECIATE YOUR BEING SO VERY GENEROUS WITH YOUR TIME AND VISITING WITH US HERE THIS WEEK AND SHARING THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE BIBLE AND ECCLESIASTES.

DR. HOLLOWAY: IT’S GREAT TO BE HERE.

MIKE: WE HAVE BEEN SHARING WITH OUR LISTENING FRIENDS THE BIBLE BOOK CALLED ECCLESIASTES, AN OLD TESTAMENT BOOK. AND UNIQUE IN THE BIBLE BOOKS THERE ARE SOME VERY UNUSUAL BOOKS INCLUDED IN THE BIBLE, BUT ECCLESIASTES IS ONE OF THE MOST UNUSUAL. ONE OF THE UNUSUAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THIS BOOK IS THAT THIS BOOK DESCRIBES OR PERHAPS RELATES A PARTICULAR PERSON, AN INDIVIDUAL’S EXPERIMENTATION WITH ALL DIFFERENT KINDS OF LIFE EXPERIENCES. THIS IS A MAN THAT HAD LOTS OF DIFFERENT LIFE EXPERIENCES AND IS SHARING HIS EXPERIENCES WITH THE PEOPLE THAT WOULD READ HIS LETTER OR BOOK HERE IN THIS BOOK CALLED ECCLESIASTES. YESTERDAY WE TALKED ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCES WITH TRYING NEW THINGS, ALWAYS HAVING NEW EXPERIENCES AND WHAT WAS THE RESULT OF THAT. TODAY WE MOVE ON TO “WISDOM”. THIS AUTHOR OF ECCLESIASTES TALKS ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCES WITH WISDOM. CAN YOU SHARE WITH US WHAT THE AUTHOR EXPERIMENTED WITH AND WHAT HE DISCOVERED?

DR. HOLLOWAY: AGAIN THAT’S A GOOD WAY TO PUT IT, YOU MIGHT EVEN ENTITLE THE BOOK ECCLESIASTES “AN EXPERIMENT IN LIFE”. THIS IS A RICH MAN, A POWERFUL MAN WHO HAS THE RESOURCES AND TIME TO TRY ALL THOSE THINGS WE THINK WE WOULD LIKE TO TRY AND MAYBE WE DO TO SOME EXTENT. THE WRITER OF THE BOOK OF ECCLESIASTES IS USUALLY SPOKEN OF AS A WISDOM BOOK. IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, AS WELL AS THE NEW, WISDOM IS A GOOD THING. IN OUR CULTURE, I THINK IT’S A WORD THAT MAY HAVE LOST SOME OF IT’S MEANING, WE DON’T USE THE WORD “WISDOM” VERY OFTEN. MAYBE WE TRADED WISDOM IN FOR KNOWLEDGE OR EXPERTISE OR DEGREES SO, AT LEAST HERE IN THE WEST, IF YOU WANT SOMETHING DONE SOMETIMES YOU THING YOU CAN CALL IN THE EXPERT, THE CONSULTANT WHO WILL TELL YOU EXACTLY THE WAY TO DO THINGS. BIBLICAL WISDOM IS MUCH BROADER. IT’S NOT JUST KNOWLEDGE, IT’S MORE KNOW HOW. I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES WHERE WISDOM IS USED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT IT’S USED TO DESCRIBE MEN WHO BUILD THINGS FOR THE TABERNACLE, ARTISANS. THEIR WISDOM IS OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING NOT LEARNED IN THE BOOK, IT’S SOMETHING TO SOME EXTENT THEY’RE GIVEN OR BORN WITH, ALSO SOMETHING THEY LEARN AFTER LONG YEARS OF APPRENTICESHIP. WISDOM REALLY IS KNOWING HOW TO LIVE, IT’S HAVING GONE THROUGH THE APPRENTICESHIP OF LIFE, IF YOU WILL, AND THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES SAYS, IT MAY SOUND BOLD AND BRASH TO US, THAT HE HAD INCREASED IN WISDOM TO WHERE HE WAS WISER THAN ANY KING BEFORE HIM. I DON’T THINK THAT’S BRAGGING THAT’S FACT. HE HAD GONE THROUGH ALL THE EXPERIENCES OF LIFE AND HE CAN COME TO CERTAIN CONCLUSIONS ABOUT HOW TO LIVE LIFE.

MIKE: CERTAINLY IN OUR WORLD TODAY KNOWLEDGE IS EQUATED WITH WISDOM; IF A PERSON HAS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF LEARNING OR A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF INFORMATION ABOUT A GIVEN SUBJECT THAT PERSON IS CONSIDERED AN EXPERT. AND YET IT HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT OFTEN THAT DOESN’T NECESSARILY TRANSLATE INTO A POSITIVE LIFE EXPERIENCE.

DR. HOLLOWAY: I’M CERTAINLY FOR EDUCATION AS SOMEONE WHO TEACHES AT A UNIVERSITY, BUT WE ALL HAVE A LOVE/HATE RELATIONSHIP WITH EDUCATION AND WITH KNOWLEDGE. ON THE ONE HAND, WE THINK EDUCATION IS A GOOD THING WE THINK INCREASING OUR KNOWLEDGE IS ALWAYS A GOOD THING. AND YET WE KNOW THE STEREOTYPE WHICH HAS SOME TRUTH IN IT OF THE ABSENT-MINDED PROFESSOR I KNEW SOMEONE LIKE THIS WHO HAD BEEN NOMINATED FOR A NOBEL PRIZE IN CHEMISTRY, BRILLIANT CHEMIST, AND YET ONE DAY I WAS WASHING MY CAR AND HE CAME OVER AND SAID, “WHAT ARE YOU DOING?” HE DIDN’T KNOW HOW TO WASH A CAR. SOMETIMES THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING SMART AND BEING REALLY SMART. WISDOM HAS TO DO MORE WITH THAT BEING REALLY SMART, NOT JUST KNOWING THINGS, HAVING LOTS OF WHAT WE MIGHT CALL BOOK KNOWLEDGE, BUT KNOWING HOW TO LIVE, HOW TO MAKE GOOD DECISIONS, KNOWING SOMETIMES WHAT IS THE GOOD PATH TO GO DOWN AND WHAT PATH TO AVOID. THAT KNOWLEDGE IS SOMETIMES PASSED ON TO US BY OTHERS, BUT MANY TIMES WE GET IT AS A RESULT OF A PAINFUL EXPERIENCE.

MIKE: LET ME ASK THIS QUESTION, THIS IDEA OF ATTAINING KNOWLEDGE, SPECIFICALLY WITH REGARD TO MAKING MORAL CHOICES. DOES THE ACQUIRING OF KNOWLEDGE NECESSARILY MAKE AN INDIVIDUAL BETTER ABLE TO MAKE MORAL CHOICES, TO KNOW THE RIGHT THING AND THE WRONG THING IN ANY GIVEN SITUATION?

DR. HOLLOWAY: IT WOULD BE NICE IF IT DID, BUT WE HAVE TOO MANY EXAMPLES PARTICULARLY IN THIS CENTURY OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE GREAT TECHNICAL EXPERTISE, BUT HAVEN’T REALLY THOUGHT THROUGH THE MORAL IMPLICATIONS. I WOULD HAVE NO IDEA OF WHERE TO BEGIN TO CREATE, FOR EXAMPLE, AN ATOMIC WEAPON. IT REALLY, STRANGELY ENOUGH DIDN’T ASK THE QUESTION, SHOULD IT BE USED AND HOW WILL IT BE USED. ON A MORE PERSONAL LEVEL, I THINK WE DO THIS EVERYDAY, WE GO THROUGH OUR DAYS FROM ONE MOMENT TO THE NEXT HAVING LEARNED WHAT KIND OF GETS OF BY. HAVING EXPERTISE IN MAYBE ONE FIELD OR ANOTHER, BUT MAYBE WE DON’T DROP BACK TO SAY WHAT IS THE MEANING OF IT ALL, WHAT’S THE BIG PICTURE. THAT’S REALLY THE KIND OF QUESTION THAT WISDOM ASKS.

MIKE: AS WE HAVE IN DAYS PAST, NOW THAT WE HAVE STOOD THAT STRAW MAN UP AND KNOCKED HIM DOWN, NOW WE HAVE SUGGESTED THAT WISDOM CERTAINLY ISN’T ALL OF THE ANSWERS TO LIFE, ALL OF THE MEANING OF LIFE CAN’T BE FOUND IN WISDOM. WHERE CAN WE DIRECT FOLKS TO GO? WE CERTAINLY DON’T WANT TO LEAVE OUR LISTENING FRIENDS HANGING OUT THERE ON THAT PARTICULAR LIMB?

DR. HOLLOWAY: HAVING SAID ALL THAT WE’VE SAID, THIS DOESN’T MEAN WISDOM IS A BAD THING. WISDOM IS ALWAYS A GOOD THING. THE OPPOSITE OF WISDOM IS FOOLISHNESS. WE’RE NOT PROMOTING FOOLISHNESS TODAY. BUT THERE IS THE QUESTION OF WHAT IS TRUE WISDOM. IS IT SIMPLY WHAT WE HAVE EXPERIENCED? IS IT SIMPLY WHAT OUR ANCESTORS PASS ON TO US AT TRADITIONAL WISDOM? IF THAT’S ALL WE HAVE, THEN THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES HAVING SAID HE’S WISE MORE THAN ANY KING BEFORE HIM, HE ASKS THE QUESTION, “WHY HAVE I BEEN SO WISE, WHAT GOOD DID IT DO ME?” THERE ARE LIMITS TO HUMAN WISDOM, EARTHLY WISDOM. SO AS WE SAW YESTERDAY WITH NOVELTY, THERE IS A DEEPER KIND OF WISDOM, A TRUE WISDOM, A GODLY WISDOM. ONE REFRAIN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT IS THE FEAR OF THE LORD IS THE BEGINNING OF WISDOM. SO THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES SAYS MY WISDOM THAT I ACQUIRED ON MY OWN REALLY DID ME NO GOOD, BUT HE ENDS THIS BOOK BY SAYING WHEN EVERYTHING HAS BEEN HEARD YOU SHOULD FEAR GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. IN THE NEW TESTAMENT WE HAVE PROMISE THAT GOD WILL GIVE US WISDOM IF WE ASK FOR IT IN THE BOOK OF JAMES. PAUL WRITES THE EPHESIANS AND PRAYS GOD WILL ENLIGHTEN, GIVE THEM THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM. SO WISDOM IS NOT JUST FOUND AT THE END OF OUR OWN EXPERIMENT IN LIFE OR AT THE END THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES, HIS EXPERIMENT WITH LIFE, BUT REALLY TRUE, DEEP PROFOUND LASTING WISDOM COMES AS A GIFT OF GOD.

MIKE: LET ME PUT YOU ON THE SPOT AGAIN AS AT THE END OF THIS VISIT WITH YOU AS I DID YESTERDAY AND ASK YOU IS SIMPLE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD WHAT YOU’RE REFERRING HERE? IS THAT THE KIND OF WISDOM THAT WOULD BRING SOME MEANING TO LIFE? IS KNOWLEDGE OF GOD ALL THAT’S REQUIRED?

DR. HOLLOWAY: IT DEPENDS I THINK WHAT YOU MEAN BY KNOWLEDGE. AGAIN, WE OUGHT TO STUDY SCRIPTURE, WE OUGHT TO READ OUR BIBLES. WE OUGHT TO KNOW WHAT IT SAYS, BUT SCRIPTURE ITSELF SAYS THOSE WORDS HAVE TO BE MORE THAN WORDS ON THE PAGE, THEY HAVE TO FIND THEIR WAY INTO OUR HEART. SO I REALLY THINK THIS TYPE OF WISDOM WE’RE TALKING ABOUT IS A KNOWLEDGE FOR BOTH HEAD AND HEART. IT’S A PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE. IF YOU ASK ME IF I KNOW MY WIFE. I CAN GIVE YOU ALL KINDS OF FACTS ABOUT HER. I CAN TELL YOU HOW TALL SHE IS, HER FAVORITE COLOR, HER FAVORITE FOODS, BUT I DON’T THINK THAT’S WHAT YOU’RE ASKING. INSTEAD I SAY YES I KNOW HER BETTER THAN I KNOW ANY PERSON ALIVE. WELL HOW I CAN’T EXACTLY TELL YOU HOW EXCEPT THROUGH THOSE LONG YEARS OF LOVING HER, BEING WITH HER, ACCEPTING THE GRACE OF HER LOVE. THAT’S THE SAME WAY WITH US IN GOD. IF WE WANT TO TRULY KNOW GOD WE HAVE TO HAVE THAT PERSONAL EXPERIENCE RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. THAT COMES THROUGH BIBLE STUDY AS SCRIPTURE POINTS US TO JESUS AND TO THE FATHER.

MIKE: WONDERFUL WAY FOR YOU TO END OUR TIME TODAY. THANK YOU. WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO YOU JOINING US AGAIN TOMORROW.

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DR. HOLLOWAY, PART FOUR

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY, WE CERTAINLY APPRECIATE YOUR BEING SO GENEROUS WITH YOUR TIME AND JOINING US EACH DAY THIS WEEK.

DR. HOLLOWAY: IT’S GOOD TO BE HERE AGAIN; IT’S GOOD TO TALK TO EVERYONE AGAIN.

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY, WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HOW THE AUTHOR OF THIS BOOK ECCLESIASTES WENT TO A GREAT DEAL OF TIME AND TROUBLE TO EXPERIENCE ALL THAT LIFE HAD TO OFFER. THIS IS A PERSON, A MAN AND AUTHOR THAT WENT IN SEARCH OF THE MEANING OF LIFE AND LOOKED IN LOTS OF DIFFERENT PLACES FOR THE MEANING OF LIFE. HE HAD LOTS OF DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES AND WE’VE TALKED ABOUT TWO OF THOSE THIS WEEK. WE’VE TALKED ABOUT A PERSON LOOKING FOR THE MEANING OF LIFE IN NOVELTY OR NEW EXPERIENCES OF LIFE. WE TALKED ABOUT A PERSON LOOKING FOR THE MEANING OF LIFE IN WISDOM OR EDUCATION AND KNOWLEDGE. TODAY WE’RE GOING TO MOVE ON TO A PLACE THAT SO MANY OF US GO LOOKING FOR THE MEANING OF LIFE AND THAT’S IN OUR MONEY OR OUR POSSESSIONS AND WHAT WE CAN ACQUIRE IN A LIFETIME. TELL US ABOUT THE AUTHOR OF ECCLESIASTES AND HIS EXPERIENCES IN THAT REGARD.

DR. HOLLOWAY: THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES IS A WEALTHY MAN. HE’S SAYS, AGAIN, HE HAD MORE WEALTH THAN ANYONE WHO HAD BEEN BEFORE HIM. HE’S A KING. WE MIGHT ENVY HIM IN THAT REGARD. MANY OF US MAYBE GREW UP WITH DREAMS OF BEING WEALTHY OR BEING A PRINCE OR PRINCESS, A KING, A QUEEN, FEELING THAT IF WE ONLY HAD ENOUGH MONEY THEN WE’D BE HAPPY OR AT LEAST HAPPIER.

MIKE: WHAT WAS THE AUTHOR’S CONCLUSION AFTER HAVING HAD THAT EXPERIENCE, HAVING POSSESSED MORE THAN PERHAPS ANYONE AROUND HIM. WHAT WAS HIS CONCLUSION?

DR. HOLLOWAY: HE HAS A GREAT DEAL TO SAY ABOUT MONEY. HE SAYS THINGS THAT DEEP DOWN WE KNOW ARE TRUE, BUT WE FIND IT HARD TO ADMIT. HE SAYS MONEY DOESN’T LAST, YOU HAVE IT AND SUDDENLY YOU LOSE IT. SO IF THE VALUE OF YOUR LIFE IS TIED UP IN HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU LOSE IT ALL? WE’VE KNOWN PEOPLE, MAYBE EVEN PERSONALLY, WHO HAD GREAT FORTUNES AND HAVE LOST THEM AND IT COMPLETELY RUINED THEIR LIVES AND MAYBE EVEN TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY TOOK THEIR OWN LIVES. HE SAYS THAT MONEY PROMISES A LOT MORE THAN IT REALLY CAN DELIVER. I’M SMILING NOW, BUT YOU CAN’T SEE THAT OVER THE RADIO. BUT I’M SMILING AND LAUGHING I GUESS AT MYSELF AND MAYBE WE’RE ALL THIS WAY. WE TEND TO THINK WELL THAT’S TRUE. YOU KNOW THERE ARE RICH PEOPLE OUT THERE, BUT THEY’RE NOT REALLY HAPPY. THEN IF WE KEEP THINKING, WE ALSO THINK IF I WERE RICH, IF I WERE A RICH PERSON, SOMEHOW I COULD BE HAPPY. SOMEHOW I COULD AVOID THE PITFALLS THAT MONEY BRINGS. I FIND IT INTERESTING HERE IN AMERICA, WHICH IS A WEALTHY COUNTRY, THAT IT’S VERY DIFFICULT TO FIND PEOPLE WHO ADMIT THAT THEY ARE RICH. SO I’LL TELL MY LISTENING AUDIENCE THAT I’M A RICH PERSON, MEANING IN A WAY I REALLY HAVE EVERYTHING I’VE EVER WANTED. I NEVER WENT WITHOUT A MEAL. I HAVE PLENTY OF CLOTHING. IT KEEPS ME WARM IN THE WINTER. I EVEN HAVE AIR CONDITIONING IN MY HOUSE TO KEEP ME COOL IN THE SUMMER. AND YET MANY PEOPLE ARE IN THAT SAME POSITION OR MAYBE IN OTHER CULTURES THEY’RE RELATIVELY RICH, BUT WE TEND TO THINK IS IF WE HAD ONE MORE THEN WE’D BE HAPPY. SO THE ONE QUESTION IS WHO IS A RICH PERSON? I HAD A STUDENT ONCE WHO WAS COMPLETELY SINCERE AND WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS. HE SAID THAT RICH PEOPLE LIVE IN STORY HOUSES. HE WASN’T RICH, HE ONLY LIVED IN A TWO-STORY HOUSE. BUT I THINK HE WAS ON TO SOMETHING. IF WE HAD 20 SETS OF CLOTHING, ONE MORE WILL MAKE US RICH. IF WE HAVE TWO CARS, ONE MORE, RICH PEOPLE HAVE THREE. THE REAL PROBLEM WITH RICHES THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES IS YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH. NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU HAVE, YOU ALWAYS WANT ONE MORE. IT’S INTERESTING AND A MYSTERY TO ME WHY WE PUT SO MUCH STOCK IN MONEY, WHY WE THINK IT WILL BRING US HAPPINESS.

MIKE: I APPRECIATE YOU SHARING THOSE THOUGHTS, BUT PLAYING A BIT OF THE DEVIL’S ADVOCATE, I KNOW THAT MANY OF OUR LISTENING FRIENDS ARE, AS YOU SAID, LISTENING TO US SAYING WELL THEY’RE SITTING THERE IN AMERICA WHICH IS SUCH A WEALTHY LAND AND THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN SO MUCH HOW CAN THEY TALK KNOWLEDGEABLY ON THIS SUBJECT? WHAT QUALIFIES US TO KNOW ANYMORE ON THIS SUBJECT THAN OTHER FOLKS?

DR. HOLLOWAY: I THINK MAYBE A VERY LEGITIMATE CRITICISM ONLY WHAT RICH FOLKS CAN SAY WELL YES MONEY DOESN’T MATTER. THEY CAN SAY IT BECAUSE THEY HAVE ENOUGH MONEY. IF YOU’RE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT WHERE YOUR NEXT MEAL WILL COME FROM, IF YOU’RE GOING TO MAKE IT THROUGH THE WINTER, YOU AND YOUR FAMILY ALIVE, THEN YOU MAY JUST SAY GIVE ME A LITTLE MORE MONEY. SOME OF OUR LISTENERS MAY KNOW THE PLAY “THE FIDDLER ON THE ROOF”. THE MAIN CHARACTER THERE IS NAMED TEBIA. HE’S A POOR MAN. HE’S AN ABOUT JEW AND HE BELIEVES IN GOD AND IS TOLD THAT RICHES ARE A CURSE AND HIS RESPONSE IS MAY GOD SMITE ME AND MAY I NEVER RECOVER. AND I’M AFRAID THAT’S THE WAY MOST OF US ARE NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE HAVE. THAT’S ANOTHER PROBLEM WITH MONEY. IT CAN FIND IT’S WAY INTO YOUR HEART AND BECOME MORE IMPORTANT THAN IT REALLY IS NO MATTER HOW MUCH OR HOW LITTLE YOU HAVE. IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, FOR EXAMPLE, PAUL DOESN’T SAY IT’S THE RICH WHO ARE IN TROUBLE. I WISH HE DID AND THEN WE COULD ALL KIND OF EXCUSE OURSELVES AND SAY I’M NOT AS RICH AS OTHERS. WHAT PAUL SAYS, IN WRITING TO TIMOTHY, THOSE WHO WANT TO BE RICH FALL INTO ALL KINDS OF SNARES AND DESIRES AND TEMPTATIONS. SO EVEN IF WE COULD EXCUSE OURSELVES BY SAYING THAT I’M NOT RICH, THE QUESTION COMES, “WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE?” AND THAT’S REALLY WHERE THE PROBLEM IS. THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES, WHO WAS A RICH MAN AND AGAIN WE MAY SAY IT’S EASY FOR A RICH MAN TO SAY SO, BUT I THINK HE DISCOVERED WHAT WE ALL NEED TO DISCOVER THAT RICHES DON’T LAST. YOU CAN’T DEPEND ON THEM; THEY DON’T GIVE YOU THE SECURITY THAT YOU WANT. REAL SECURITY, TRUE WEALTH, EVEN OUR NEXT MEAL, DAILY BREAD AS JESUS PUT IT, IS FOUND IN GOD IT COMES AS A GIFT FROM GOD.

MIKE: CONTINUE IN THAT VAIN, IF YOU WOULD, I DON’T WANT US TO FINISH OUR TIME TOGETHER ON A NEGATIVE NOTE, I DON’T WANT US TO SAY, HAPPINESS AND MEANING IN LIFE CANNOT BE FOUND IN WEALTH OR POSSESSIONS AND LEAVE IT AT THAT. I WANT US TO BE ABLE TO DIRECT OUR LISTENING FRIENDS TO A PLACE WHERE THEY CAN FIND THAT MEANING AND JOY AND HAPPINESS.

DR. HOLLOWAY: THE CLEAR TEACHING OF THE ENTIRE BIBLE, INCLUDING ECCLESIASTES, IS THAT WE SHOULD TRUST GOD AND NOT MONEY. AGAIN, I KEEP SAYING THIS BUT I THINK IT’S A VERY SUBTLE TEMPTATION. IT’S HARD TO ADMIT THAT WE ARE TRUSTING IN MONEY AND THE THINGS THAT MONEY CAN BUY. JESUS PUT IT VERY STARKLY. HE SAYS YOU CANNOT SERVE GOD AND MONEY. SO THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES PUSHES US TO MAKE A CLEAR CHOICE, TO REALLY DECIDE WHAT IS GENUINELY VALUABLE. IT’S ALMOST AS IF, NOT JUST HERE WITH MONEY, BUT THE OTHER THINGS WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT NOVELTY, WISDOM, ALL THE WAYS THAT WE TRY TO FIND MEANING IN LIFE AS IF WE ARE CHILDREN IN A FIELD LOOKING AT SHINY PIECES OF METAL WITH NO VALUE AND BEING DISTRACTED BY THEM FROM THE REAL TREASURE. THE REAL TREASURE IS IN GOD, GOD ALONE. TO PUT IT DIFFERENTLY, IF YOU’RE CONCERNED ABOUT LIVING AND MAKING A LIVING AND EVEN HAVING FOOD, WE SERVE A GOD WHO IS COMPLETELY RICH AND EVERYTHING BELONGS TO HIM. HE’S A GOD WHO IS GRACIOUS AND WILL GIVE TO THOSE WHO TRUST HIM AND DON’T TRUST IN THEIR POSSESSIONS.

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY, THIS IS CERTAINLY A SUBJECT THAT HAUNTS ME AND I VERY MUCH APPRECIATE YOUR SHARING THESE THOUGHTS WITH US. THEY’VE BEEN VERY HELPFUL TO ME AND I FEEL VERY CONFIDENT THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TO OUR LISTENING FRIENDS ALSO.

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DR. HOLLOWAY, PART FIVE

MIKE: I VERY MUCH ENJOYED YOUR COMMENTS IN OUR DISCUSSIONS. I APPRECIATE YOUR TAKING TIME TO DO THIS WITH US.

DR. HOLLOWAY: I’VE ENJOYED BEING HERE.

MIKE: WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HOW THIS AUTHOR OF THE BIBLE BOOK OF ECCLESIASTES IS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO HAD THE TIME AND RESOURCES TO EXPERIENCE EVERYTHING THAT LIFE HAD TO OFFER HIM. HE CERTAINLY WENT ABOUT THAT CHORE WITH VIGOR AND WAS VERY MUCH INTERESTED IN TRYING EVERYTHING THAT LIFE HAD TO OFFER IN A SEARCH FOR SOME MEANING TO LIFE. WHILE ALL OF US MAY NOT HAVE HAD THIS PARTICULAR PERSON’S RESOURCES AND TIME TO PERHAPS CONDUCT THAT SEARCH AS THOROUGHLY AS THIS PERSON DID, WE ARE MOST ASSUREDLY SEARCHING FOR THE MEANING OF LIFE AND SO WE APPRECIATE YOUR TAKING TIME TO DISCUSS THIS BOOK AND THIS AUTHOR’S FINDINGS WITH US. WE’VE TALKING IN THE LAST FEW DAYS ABOUT LOOKING TO WISDOM FOR THE MEANING OF LIFE, LOOKING TO MONEY AND POSSESSIONS FOR SOME MEANING IN LIFE, LOOKING FOR NOVEL EXPERIENCES FOR MEANING IN LIFE. TODAY WE MOVE ON TO THE SUBJECT OF “WORK”. I MUST CONFESS I’M REALLY NOT LOOKING AS FORWARD TO THIS DISCUSSION AS I HAVE SOME OF THE OTHERS BECAUSE WORK IS ONE OF THOSE PLACES WHERE UNFORTUNATELY I HAVE LOOKED FOR SOME MEANING IN LIFE. I KNOW THERE ARE A LOT OF FOLKS OUT THERE IN MY OWN CIRCUMSTANCES WHO HAVE BEEN OR ARE WORKAHOLICS. TALK WITH US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT LOOKING FOR MEANING IN WHAT WE CAN ACCOMPLISH IN THIS LIFE WITH REGARD TO WORK.

DR. HOLLOWAY: IT IS INTERESTING THAT ECCLESIASTES IS A BOOK BY SOMEONE WHO IS VERY WEALTHY WHO WE’D SAY HAS ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD AND YET HE TALKS ABOUT WORK. A LOT OF US TEND TO THINK THAT IF I HAD ENOUGH MONEY THE FIRST THING I WOULD DO IS QUIT WORKING. AND YET I’M NOT SURE WE REALLY WOULD QUIT OUR JOBS, BUT I THINK WE WOULD GET A BIT BORED AFTER A WHILE DOING NOTHING. WE DO, EVEN IF WE DON’T NEED TO WORK FOR A LIVING, ALTHOUGH MOST OF US, THE VAST MAJORITY OF US, WORK BECAUSE WE LIKE TO EAT. WE NEED TO WORK. BUT EVEN IF WE HAD ENOUGH MONEY TO WHERE WE DIDN’T NEED TO WORK, WE WOULD SEARCH FOR SOMETHING WORTHWHILE TO DO. THAT’S WHAT WORK IS ALL ABOUT AND TRY TO FIND MEANING IN OUR WORK. I FIND IT INTERESTING, AGAIN HERE IN AMERICA, THAT WHEN YOU’RE INTRODUCED TO PEOPLE, EVEN AS YOU INTRODUCED ME A FEW MINUTES AGO TO THE LISTENING AUDIENCE, THAT WE TEND TO INTRODUCE PEOPLE NOT JUST BY NAME BUT ALSO BY WHAT DO YOU DO. IT’S A STRANGE QUESTION NOT WHAT DO YOU DO MEANING WELL I PRAY, I SERVE GOD, I LOVE MY FAMILY, BUT MEANING WHAT IS YOUR OCCUPATION, WHAT IS YOUR WORK. THAT VERY QUESTION SHOWS THAT MANY OF US GET OUR IDENTITY FROM WHAT WE DO DAY TO DAY FOR A LIVING. WE GO THROUGH LIFE AND MAYBE WE EVEN PUT ON OUR TOMBSTONES “RADIO ANNOUNCER”, “DOCTOR”, “LAWYER”, “BUTCHER”, WHATEVER IT IS WE DO FOR AN OCCUPATION.

MIKE: OBVIOUSLY, THIS AUTHOR HAD THE TIME AND THE RESOURCES TO DO THIS. IF THE AUTHOR IS SOLOMON AS SOME PEOPLE SEEM THINK IT WAS, OBVIOUSLY SOLOMON WAS ENGAGED IN ALL OF HIS LIFE CREATING FANTASTIC STRUCTURES AND BUILDING ARMIES AND ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT REQUIRED A GREAT DEAL OF EFFORT. SO HE CERTAINLY WAS EXPERIENCED, HE CERTAINLY HAD THE FULL WORK EXPERIENCE, WHAT DID HE DETERMINE FROM THAT EXPERIENCE?

DR. HOLLOWAY: AGAIN, THE WHOLE WORLD WAS IN FRONT OF HIM, HE COULD DO ANYTHING HE WANTED. SOME OF THE THINGS HE DID WAS HE BUILT GREAT CITIES, PLANTED GREAT GARDENS, HAD SOME KIND OF ARTISTIC ABILITY THAT HE HAD OR OTHERS SAW IN HIM. AGAIN, HE CONQUERED KINGDOMS. IT ALL SOUNDS LIKE FAIRLY EXCITING WORK TO ME. SO I FIND INTERESTING THAT HAVING DONE ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT WE WOULD CONSIDER TO BE EXCITING WORK, MUCH MORE GLAMOROUS THE KIND OF JOBS THAT WE HAVE FROM DAY TO DAY, HIS FAVORITE WORD FOR WORK IS “TOIL”. AND TOIL TO ME IMPLIES NOT THIS EXCITING BUILDING CITIES, PLANTING GARDENS, CONQUERING KINGDOMS, BUT IMPLIES THAT DAY TO DAY DRUDGERY, THAT REPETITIVE JOB THAT MAYBE ALL OF US FEEL THIS WAY IN WHATEVER OCCUPATION WE HAVE. WHERE WE’VE KIND OF DONE IT BEFORE AND IT’S LOST A LOT OF ITS JOY AND MEANING. HE CALLS WORK “MEANINGLESS TOIL”. HAVING SAID THAT, DOES THAT MEAN WELL THEREFORE LET’S JUST GIVE UP WORK? HE DOESN’T SAY THAT EITHER. THERE IS SOME VALUE IN WORK. THIS IS ONE OF THOSE AREAS WHERE IT IS GOOD TO READ THE WHOLE BOOK OF ECCLESIASTES BECAUSE IF WE READ CERTAIN PASSAGES, HE SAYS WORK IS VAIN, IT’S EMPTY, IT’S TOIL, IT’S GOOD FOR NOTHING, IT’S WORTHLESS. IF YOU READ OTHER PASSAGES, HE TALKS ABOUT YOU CAN FIND JOY IN YOUR WORK. SOME HAVE SAID THE WRITER OF THE BOOK ECCLESIASTES CONTRADICTS HIMSELF. I DON’T THINK SO. INSTEAD I THINK HE HAS A BETTER HANDLE THAN SOME OF US ON THE VALUE OF WORK. WORK IS VALUABLE, BUT ONLY IN ITS PLACE. IF WE TRY TO FIND OUR VALUE, OUR MEANING IN WHAT WE DO, THEN SURE ENOUGH IT TURNS INTO TOIL. IF WE ENJOY THE DAY TO DAY TASKS, THEN IT DOES BECOME SOMETHING THAT BRINGS AT LEAST A LIMITED VALUE TO US.

MIKE: ONCE AGAIN, WE DON’T WANT TO LIVE OUR LISTENERS WITH A NEGATIVE IMPRESSION OF OUR COMMENTS OR THE CHRISTIAN EXPERIENCE OR WHAT THE BIBLE HAS TO SAY ON THE SUBJECT OF WORK OR EVEN THE MEANING OF LIFE. LET’S END OUR TIME TOGETHER ON A MORE POSITIVE NOTE AND LEAD OUR LISTENING FRIENDS IN A DIRECTION THAT CAN PROVIDE SOME HOPE FOR THEM. IF I CAN’T FIND SOME MEANING IN MY CAREER, IF I CAN’T FIND THE ULTIMATE MEANING OF LIFE IN THE WORK THAT I DO EVERYDAY, IF I CAN’T TAKE JOY IN BEING INTRODUCED AS HAVING A CERTAIN DEGREE OR A CERTAIN OCCUPATION OR A WORK TITLE, THEN WHERE DO I GO?

DR. HOLLOWAY: THE ANSWER THAT ECCLESIASTES GIVES, AND I THINK AGAIN, THE WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE GIVES, IS THAT THE MEANING OF WORK JUST LIKE ALL THESE OTHER AREAS WE’VE TALKED ABOUT IS FOUND IN GOD. DO WE WORK TO JUST PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE? DO WE WORK JUST BECAUSE WE HAVE TO? DO WE, LIKE MORE AND MORE OF US, WORK BECAUSE THERE WE THINK WE WILL FIND SOME KIND OF FAME, ACCOMPLISHMENT, LASTING VALUE. THE BIBLE SAYS NONE OF THE ABOVE. INSTEAD OUR ATTITUDE SHOULD BE THAT WE ARE WORKING FOR GOD. IF YOU GO TO THE NEW TESTAMENT, YOU HAVE PASSAGES THAT TELL CHRISTIANS TO DO THEIR BEST AT THEIR WORK FOR A BOSS, A MASTER HERE IN THIS WORLD, BUT THEY’RE REALLY WORKING FOR GOD. IF THAT’S OUR ATTITUDE IT REALLY CHANGES THE WAY WE APPROACH EVERY MOMENT OF EVERY DAY AT WORK. IT’S INTERESTING TO ME THAT PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO TAKE GREAT PRIDE SOMETIMES IN THEIR TITLE AND POSITION DON’T LIKE WHAT THEY DO FROM MOMENT TO MOMENT DURING THE DAY. THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES SAYS IF YOU SEE YOUR WORK AS A WAY TO SERVE OTHERS AND TO SERVE GOD THEN EVEN THOSE TASKS THAT SEEM INSIGNIFICANT CAN BECOME GLORIOUS BECAUSE THEY’RE DONE FOR GOD. I SOMETIMES LIKE TO ASK PEOPLE WOULD YOU RATHER BE THE OWNER AND PRESIDENT OF A COMPANY OR THE SUB-JANITOR IN THE BASEMENT WHO CLEANS THE FLOORS. STRANGELY ENOUGH, I THINK MOST OF US WOULD QUICKLY VOTE TO BE THE OWNER AND THE PRESIDENT. WHAT ECCLESIASTES REMINDS US IS THE SUB-JANITOR CLEANING THE FLOORS CAN DO THAT FOR GOD WITH SONG IN HIS HEART AND FIND A JOY AND LIMITED MEANING IN HIS WORK THAT THE PRESIDENT WHO THINKS SOMEHOW HE/SHE IS SOMETHING GETS MEANING OUT OF THIS POSITION REALLY DOESN’T HAVE IF THEY DON’T DO THEIR WORK FOR GOD.

MIKE: I’M GLAD YOU MADE THAT LAST POINT BECAUSE I THINK MANY TIMES PEOPLE IN LOOKING AT CHRISTIANS FEEL THAT IF THEY SHOULD EMBRACE THE CHRISTIAN LIFE AND CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES THAT THEY SOMEHOW THEN WOULD BE REQUIRED TO ABANDON EVERY ASPECT OF THEIR CURRENT LIVES AND MOVE OFF IN SOME NEW DIRECTION, BUT AT LEAST WITH REGARD TO WORK AND OCCUPATION YOU’RE SAYING THAT GOD CAN BE FOUND IN ALMOST WHATEVER WE ARE DOING.

DR. HOLLOWAY: THE NEW TESTAMENT SPEAKS OF CHRISTIANS AS PRIESTS, NOT PARTICULAR CHRISTIANS BUT ALL CHRISTIANS AS PRIESTS WHICH MEANS WHATEVER WORK WE’RE CALLED, NO MATTER HOW HUMBLE OTHERS CONSIDER IT OR HOW GREAT AND WONDERFUL AND PRESTIGIOUS OTHERS CONSIDER IT, THAT IT ONLY HAS VALUE AND MEANING IF IT’S DONE FOR GOD.

MIKE: WE CERTAINLY APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING WITH YOU AGAIN TOMORROW AS WE CONTINUE TO EXAMINE THE BIBLE BOOK CALLED ECCLESIASTES AS YOU SHARE WITH US YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE MEANING OF LIFE.

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DR. HOLLOWAY, PART SIX

MIKE: THIS HAS BEEN A FASCINATING SERIES OF DISCUSSIONS BECAUSE THIS PARTICULAR BOOK ECCLESIASTES TALKS A GREAT DEAL ABOUT THE MEANING OF LIFE, SOMETHING THAT ALL OF US HAVE SEARCHED FOR THROUGHOUT OUR LIVES AND DR. HOLLOWAY’S COMMENTS CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN VERY HELPFUL TO ME AND I KNOW TO OUR LISTENING FRIENDS WHO HAVE BEEN SHARING THESE DISCUSSIONS WITH US. DR. HOLLOWAY, WE VERY MUCH APPRECIATE YOUR TAKING TIME TO BE WITH US AND LOOK FORWARD TO TODAY’S DISCUSSION.

DR. HOLLOWAY: IT’S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY, WE’RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT A SUBJECT TODAY THAT IS DIFFICULT FOR THE TWO OF US, I WOULD DARE SAY, AND FOR MANY OF OUR CHRISTIAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS, BUT WE HAVE LOOKED FOR THE MEANING OF LIFE IN LOTS OF PLACES THAT WERE VERY EASY FOR US TO DISMISS. WE’VE TALKED ABOUT MONEY AND ONE’S OCCUPATION; WE’VE TALKED ABOUT WISDOM AND NEW EXPERIENCES; AND AS CHRISTIAN PEOPLE ALL OF THOSE WERE RELATIVELY EASY FOR US TO DISMISS. TODAY WE’RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IS NEAR AND DEAR TO OUR HEARTS AND THAT’S THE SUBJECT OF RELIGION. THAT CERTAINLY IS A PLACE WHERE MANY OF US GO TO LOOK FOR SOME MEANING IN LIFE AND YET THE AUTHOR OF ECCLESIASTES HAS SOME THINGS TO SAY ABOUT THAT, AND IT MAY BE DIFFICULT FOR US TO APPRECIATE.

DR. HOLLOWAY: RELIGION IS ONE OF THOSE WORDS THAT CERTAINLY CUTS TWO WAYS. SOME MAY BE THINKING WELL RELIGION, THAT’S OBVIOUSLY A GOOD THING, THAT’S WHY THEY’RE LISTENING TO THIS BROADCAST. YET WE ALL HEAR THAT WORD AND REACT NEGATIVELY AGAINST IT. WE LOOK AT SOMEONE AND SAY THEY ARE A VERY RELIGIOUS PERSON, WHICH MIGHT MEAN THEY HAVE A GENUINE RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. WE CAN ALSO USE THAT SAME LANGUAGE TO MEAN THEY PUT ON A GOOD FRONT, APPEARING RELIGIOUS, RIGHT WITH GOD. THEY KNOW THE THINGS TO SAY AND THE ACTIONS TO DO. THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES AT ONE LEVEL IS CERTAINLY A RELIGIOUS MAN. HE FOLLOWS GOD. HE TRIES TO FIND MEANING AND FINDS MEANING IN GOD ALONE AND NOT IN THESE OTHER AREAS WE’VE TALKED ABOUT: MONEY, NEWNESS AND THE OTHER THINGS. YET HE HAS SOME INTERESTING THINGS TO SAY, SOME DISTURBING THINGS TO SAY ABOUT RELIGION. ONE THING HE SAYS IS HE TELLS PEOPLE DON’T BE OVERLY RIGHTEOUS. WHICH SEEMS STRANGE TO ME, HOW COULD ONE BE OVERLY RIGHTEOUS. DON’T WE ALL WANT TO BE RIGHTEOUS AND BE RIGHT WITH GOD? SO WHAT CAN HE MEAN? I THINK HE MEANS WHAT WE SEE IN OTHER PARTS OF SCRIPTURE THAT THERE ARE THOSE WHO THINK THEY ARE RIGHT WITH GOD OR MAYBE AT LEAST WANT TO THOUGHT OF BY OTHERS AS RIGHT WITH GOD. WE MAY SEE PEOPLE AND IF WE’RE HONEST EVEN SEE SOME OF THIS IN OURSELVES. WE LIKE FOR OTHERS TO THINK, “THERE’S A REALLY GODLY PERSON WHO READS THEIR BIBLE, PRAYS, IS HOLY, IS PIOUS.” AND YET WHAT WE DON’T REALLY WANT TO DO IS GO THROUGH THE TRUE EFFORT OF BEING RIGHT WITH GOD, OF GETTING OUR ATTITUDES RIGHT WITH GOD, OF TRUSTING IN HIM INSTEAD OF OURSELVES.

MIKE: I GUESS WHAT I CAN SAY AFTER THAT IS, “OUCH!”

DR. HOLLOWAY: IT HURTS. IT HURTS ALL OF US. AGAIN IN ADDITION TO BEING ONE WHO TEACHES SCRIPTURE, SOME MAY LOOK AT ME AND SAY YOU’RE A PROFESSIONAL RIGHTEOUS PERSON AND MIGHT EVEN SAY I’M OVERLY RIGHTEOUS. I KNOW MYSELF AND DON’T THINK I AM. YET THERE IS ALWAYS THAT DANGER I THINK ALL OF US MAY FACE OF HYPOCRISY, WANTING TO LOOK BETTER THAN WE ARE. THAT IS WHAT HYPOCRISY IS ALL ABOUT. THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES SAYS IT’S NOT REALLY IN GETTING THINGS RIGHT, DOING THE RIGHT CEREMONIES, GOING TO THE TEMPLE AND LOOKING GOOD THAT COUNTS. THAT’S WHAT HE MEANS BY SAYING DON’T BE OVERLY RIGHTEOUS.

MIKE: AGAIN, AS WE HAVE EACH DAY, WE’VE TALKED ABOUT THIS AUTHOR’S NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE, WHAT THIS AUTHOR SAID HERE WAS AN EXPERIENCE I HAD AND IT DID NOT BRING ME ANY JOY, IT DIDN’T BRING ME ANY LASTING HAPPINESS. IT REALLY WAS NOT A SOURCE OF MEANING IN LIFE. WHERE DO WE GO? DO WE ABANDON RELIGION ALTOGETHER? IS THERE SOME MIDDLE GROUND HERE THAT COULD HELP US ACHIEVE SOME MEANING IN LIFE AND FAITH?

DR. HOLLOWAY: MANY HAVE CONTRASTED RELIGION AND CHRISTIANITY AND THAT MAY SOUND STRANGE BECAUSE WE USUALLY THINK OF CHRISTIANITY AS ONE OF THE GREAT RELIGIONS. YET WHAT IS MEANT BY THAT CONTRAST IS RELIGION SEEMS TO ALWAYS IMPLY THE HUMAN DESIRE AND TO GRASP FOR GOD, TRYING TO MAKE OURSELVES SOMEWHAT RIGHT WITH GOD. AGAIN, DOING THE RIGHT THINGS, SAYING THE RIGHT THINGS, GOING THROUGH THE RIGHT CEREMONIES AND BY DOING THAT SOMEHOW EARNING OUR TOWARD HEAVEN. CHRISTIANITY SAYS, “NO, WE ARE ALL SINNERS, THAT WE CAN BE RIGHT WITH GOD, BUT ONLY BECAUSE GOD BY HIS GRACE MAKES US RIGHT WITH HIM THROUGH JESUS.” THAT DOESN’T MEAN WE ABANDON ALL RELIGIOUS CEREMONIES, BUT IT DOES MEAN THAT RELIGION IS NOT PRIMARILY SOMETHING THAT IS OUTWARD, IT’S A MATTER OF THE HEART. JESUS HAD THIS PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE IN HIS DAY WHO LOOKED VERY RELIGIOUS; THEY WERE KNOWN AS PHARISEES. BUT JESUS CRITICIZED THEM BECAUSE THEY REALLY DIDN’T HAVE THAT TRUE RELIGION OF THE HEART. SO IT’S NOT WRONG TO PRAY, IT’S RIGHT TO PRAY IF WE’RE PRAYING TO TALK WITH GOD. IT CAN BE WRONG IF WE’RE PRAYING TO BE SEEN BY OTHERS JESUS SAYS. IT’S NOT WRONG TO GIVE TO THOSE IN NEED IF WE DO IT, WHY, BECAUSE GOD HAS GIVEN TO US SO WE’RE SHOWING THE SAME KIND OF COMPASSION HE SHOWS US. IT CAN BE WRONG IF WE WANT TO GET CREDIT FROM OTHERS FOR GIVING. THE OTHER THINGS WE TALKED ABOUT, THERE IS TRUE RELIGION AND FALSE RELIGION JUST AS THEIR IS TRUE WISDOM AND A FALSE, AT LEAST LIMITED RURALLY, WISDOM. MY ADVICE IS AS THE ADVICE IN ECCLESIASTES WOULD BE TRY TO BE LESS RELIGIOUS AND INSTEAD TRY MORE TO HAVE THAT CLOSE PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD THAT SHOWS ITSELF IN EVERYTHING THAT WE DO.

MIKE: I WANTED TO DRAW ONE DISTINCTION HERE BECAUSE I DON’T WANT TO LEAVE OUR LISTENERS WITH THE WRONG IMPRESSION. WE’VE KIND OF MADE A CONTRAST HERE BETWEEN HYPOCRITICAL RELIGION AND SOMEONE IS GENUINELY PRACTICING A FAITH IN GOD. THERE MAY BE MANY PEOPLE THAT FEEL LIKE THEY FIND THEMSELVES IN SOMETHING OF A MIDDLE GROUND THERE WHO HAVE TAKEN GREAT JOY IN THE RITUALS AND THE TRADITIONS OF THEIR FAITH. THEY DON’T DO IT AT ALL HYPOCRITICALLY AND ARE GENUINE IN WHAT THEY DO AND YET OVER TIME THEY HAVE FELT A HOLLOWNESS THERE. CAN YOU ADDRESS THAT FOR JUST A MOMENT?

DR. HOLLOWAY: YES. AGAIN RITUAL CAN BE A GOOD THING AND CAN BE A BAD THING. IF BY RITUAL WE MEAN THOSE ACTIONS, THOSE PRACTICES, THOSE DISCIPLINES THAT BRING US CLOSER TO GOD IN A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, THE TERM RITUAL SOMETIMES IMPLIES SOMETHING THAT IS OLD AND WE GO THROUGH THE MOTIONS AND DON’T REALLY MEAN IT OR AT LEAST THE RITUAL ITSELF HAS LOST SOME OF ITS MEANING. SO JESUS ENCOURAGES THE DISCIPLINES, FOR EXAMPLE, TO PRAY BUT HE ALSO WARNED THEM AGAINST PRAYING LIKE THE PAGANS, THINKING BY GETTING THE RIGHT WORDS THAT WE SOMEHOW MANIPULATE GOD. THE ROOT QUESTION HERE IN ECCLESIASTES AND ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING THIS WEEK IS ARE WE PUTTING OUR FOCUS ON GOD AND FINDING OUR MEANING IN HIM OR ARE WE TRYING, AGAIN, TO MAKE OUR OWN WAY IN LIFE AND MAKE OUR OWN MEANING. THAT’S WHEN RELIGION BECOMES A BAD THING WHEN IT’S OUR ATTEMPT TO MAKE RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD INSTEAD OF JUST ACCEPTING THE RELATIONSHIP THAT HE WANTS TO GIVE US, ACCEPTING WHAT HE’S DONE BY GRACE.

MIKE: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THAT WAS VERY HELPFUL TO ME AND I KNOW MUST BE TO OUR LISTENING FRIENDS AS WELL. WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME TODAY.

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DR. HOLLOWAY, PART SEVEN

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY HAS BEEN TALKING TO US ABOUT THE MEANING OF LIFE WHICH IS VERY MUCH THE SUBJECT OF THIS BOOK CALLED ECCLESIASTES, A FASCINATING SERIES OF DISCUSSIONS. TODAY, DR. HOLLOWAY, WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT “PLEASURE” WHICH IS UNDOUBTEDLY ONE OF THOSE PLACES WHERE SO MANY OF US GO IN SEARCH OF SOME MEANING IN LIFE, SOME LASTING HAPPINESS AND JOY. UNFORTUNATELY, MOST OF US ARE DISAPPOINTED THEIR AT LEAST IN THE LONG TERM. WHAT WAS EXPERIENCE OF THIS AUTHOR OF THIS BOOK OF ECCLESIASTES? DID HE HAVE THAT SAME EXPERIENCE?

DR. HOLLOWAY: YES, HE CERTAINLY DID. I THINK MANY OF US, AT LEAST SOME TIME DURING OUR LIVES, WOULD EQUATE HAPPINESS WITH PLEASURE. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE HAPPY? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO HAVE MEANING IN LIFE? WELL IT MEANS, “WELL I FEEL PRETTY GOOD NOW OR FEEL VERY GOOD NOW.” THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES COULD TRY AND DID TRY ALL THOSE PLEASURES THAT MAYBE WE’VE TRIED SOME AND NOT OTHERS. HE TRIED WHAT WE MAY THINK OF, AT LEAST SOME OF US, AS PLEASURES THAT CAN BE DONE IMMORALLY SO HE TALKS ABOUT HAVING ALL KINDS OF WINES. HE TRIED OLD WINE TO MAKE THE HEART GLAD, BUT MORE THAN THAT HE TRIED THOSE, WHAT WE MIGHT THINK OF AS HIGHER OR DEEPER PLEASURES IN LIFE. HE TALKED A BIT ABOUT ACCOMPLISHMENT, CREATING BEAUTIFUL THINGS. SO BY PLEASURE HERE WE’RE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT KIND OF THE LOWER BASIC PLEASURES IN LIFE, WE’RE ASKING AND THERE’S SOMETHING OUT THERE THAT BRINGS US THAT KIND OF LASTING, GOOD FEELING. THE WAY HE PUTS IT IS, HE SAYS, “COME, I’LL TEST YOU WITH PLEASURE I THOUGHT IN MY HEART.” SO HE MAY NO BONES ABOUT IT. HE SAID I’LL TRY TO EXPERIENCE EVERY PLEASURE THE WORLD HAS. HIS CONCLUSION IS IT PROVED TO BE MEANINGLESS, ONE OF HIS FAVORITE WORDS. AGAIN, JUST AS OTHER THINGS WE’VE TALKED ABOUT, WE MAY THINK THAT SOUNDS LIKE A RICH, POWERFUL FELLOW. IF I WERE IN HIS SHOES, I’D ENJOY IT MORE. YET OUR OWN EXPERIENCE IS WE TRY THINGS THAT WE ENJOY, BUT AFTER A WHILE THEY DON’T SEEM TO BRING US AS MUCH JOY AS THEY ONCE DID. THERE ARE LOTS OF PROBLEMS WITH PLEASURE. YOU CAN’T SUSTAIN IT FOREVER EVEN IF YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT FEELING GOOD, PHYSICAL PLEASURES. THEY DON’T LAST AND WE EVENTUALLY END UP WITH PAIN INSTEAD OF PLEASURE. IF YOU’RE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THOSE HIGHER PLEASURES, THEY FAIL TO GIVE REALLY LASTING JOY AND HAPPINESS. SO THIS IS ONE OF THOSE AREAS, AGAIN, THAT WE MIGHT THINK IT WILL BRING US MEANING. BUT WE FIND AFTER A WHILE THAT WE JUST DON’T FEEL AS GOOD AS WE ONCE DID. THOSE PLEASURES JUST CAN’T LAST.

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY, OVER THE CENTURIES ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE OF FAITH HAVE BEEN KNOWN FOR IS THAT QUITE OFTEN THEY COME TO THIS CONCLUSION THAT THE PLEASURES OF LIFE REALLY DO NOT PROVIDE ANY LASTING MEANING AND SO AS OFTEN HAPPENS WITH PEOPLE IN OUR EXPERIENCE OF LIFE, WE GO TO THE OPPOSITE EXTREME AND SAY WELL IF THE PLEASURES OF LIFE BOTH MORAL AND IMMORAL ... PERHAPS THE OPPOSITE WOULD BRING ME SOME LASTING MEANING IN LIFE AND SO THEY JUST ELIMINATE ALL PLEASURE IN LIFE. IS THAT WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT DOING HERE?

DR. HOLLOWAY: NO, NOT AT ALL. I KNOW THAT THE CHRISTIANS ARE SOMETIMES ACCUSED OF BEING “KILL-JOYS”. SOMEONE MIGHT EVEN DEFINE A CHRISTIAN AS SOMEONE WHO HAS THIS TERRIBLE PAIN BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE SNEAKING SUSPENSION THAT SOMEWHERE SOMEBODY IS HAVING FUN. THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES SAYS, “NO, IT IS GOOD TO FEEL GOOD. THERE IS SOME JOY IN PLEASURE.” BUT WHAT WE SHOULDN’T THINK IS THAT IT BRINGS THAT PERMANENT, LASTING JOY, THAT COMPLETE MEANING OF LIFE. SO THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES WILL TURN AROUND AND TALK ABOUT WHAT I CALL THE “LITTLE PLEASURES” OF LIFE. AGAIN ENJOYING LIFE WITH YOUR WIFE OR HUSBAND, YOUR FAMILY, ENJOYING THE BEAUTIES OF LIFE. I KNOW FOR SOME THIS BECOMES KIND OF A SHALLOW CLICHE “STOP AND SMELL THE ROSES”. BUT THERE IS SOME TRUTH IN THAT, THAT MAYBE WE GET TOO CAUGHT UP IN LOOKING FOR THE BIG PLEASURE IN LIFE AND WE FAIL TO APPRECIATE THE SMALLER ONES. I THINK WHAT IS GOING ON HERE IN AN EVEN MORE PROFOUND LEVEL IS THAT THE BIBLE REALLY PROMISES US NOT LESS PLEASURE, BUT GREATER PLEASURES. SO IT’S NOT SO MUCH THAT THE CHRISTIANS ARE AGAINST FEELING GOOD, BUT WHAT GOD IS SAYING TO US IS THAT WE’RE MESSING AROUND WITH ALL THESE LITTLE PLEASURES IN LIFE, AGAIN GOOD HEALTH, SEXUAL DESIRE, ALL THE OTHER KIND OF PLEASURES WE CAN THINK OF. WHAT HE HAS IN STORE FOR US IS EVEN GREATER JOYS AND GREATER PLEASURES. IF WE’LL ONLY COME TO HIM. THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES REMINDS US THAT GOD REALLY IS THE SOURCE OF ALL TRUE JOY, TRUE PLEASURE. WHERE WE GET IN TROUBLE IS TRYING TO PUT TOO MUCH VALUE ON THE LITTLE PLEASURES OF LIFE.

MIKE: REMARKABLE THOUGHTS. I APPRECIATE YOU SHARING THAT WITH US. I KNOW ONE OF MY EXPERIENCES OF LIFE AND UNDOUBTEDLY ONE OF YOURS TOO IS THAT YOU LOOK AT PEOPLE AROUND YOU THAT ARE ENGAGED IN VARIOUS IMMORAL PLEASURES THAT YOU OR I MIGHT NOT NECESSARILY PARTICIPATE IN, AND THEY PURSUE THOSE WITH ABANDON, AND YET THEY INVARIABLY WIND UP IN DISASTER. YOU LOOK AT THAT AND YOU FEEL LIKE YOU WANT TO ASK, “ARE YOU HAVING FUN YET?” I HAVE SEEN THIS IN MY OWN FAMILY EVEN. THAT’S NOT TO SUGGEST THAT THAT SAME THING DOESN’T OCCUR IN MY OWN LIFE. IT DOES, PERHAPS NOT TO THAT DEGREE AND PERHAPS WITH NO AS MANY IMMORAL PLEASURES. STILL THAT HAPPENS.

DR. HOLLOWAY: AGAIN, THE ADDITIONAL WARNING IS WE MAY SAY YEA, I WOULD GET INVOLVED IN THOSE KIND OF IMMORAL PLEASURES, WE SEE WHERE THOSE LEAD. BUT THE OTHER WARNING HERE IS EVEN THOSE PLEASURES ARE GOOD, THAT ARE MORAL PLEASURES, STILL DON’T BRING ULTIMATE MEANING IN LIFE. SO SOMETIMES, MANY TIMES, WHAT THE BIBLE WARNS US ABOUT IS NOT JUST THOSE THINGS THAT ARE BAD. YES, WE OUGHT TO STAY AWAY FROM THOSE, BUT IT WARNS US AGAINST SETTLING FOR LESSER GOODS. I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THOSE EXAMPLES. THERE ARE REAL PLEASURES IN LIFE, BUT THEY’RE NOT REAL ULTIMATE PLEASURE. THAT’S ONLY FOUND IN GOD.

MIKE: I LIKE THAT EXPRESSION “LESSER GOOD”. THANK YOU FOR SHARING THAT WITH US.

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DR. HOLLOWAY, PART EIGHT

MIKE: WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE MEANING OF LIFE. CERTAINLY A TOPIC THAT ALL OF US CAN RELATE TO. DR. HOLLOWAY, WE VERY MUCH APPRECIATE YOUR BEING SO GENEROUS WITH YOUR TIME AND KNOWLEDGE.

DR. HOLLOWAY: I APPRECIATE BEING ASKED TO BE HERE.

MIKE: TODAY WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT A PLACE OR AN AREA WHERE MANY PEOPLE GO TO LOOK FOR SOME MEANING TO LIFE AND THAT IS IN THAT “FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH”, LOOKING TO PRESERVE THEIR YOUTH AND TO STAY ETERNALLY YOUNG. YET, ULTIMATELY, VERY FRUSTRATING FOR ALL OF US.

DR. HOLLOWAY: YES, ONE CAN TRY, BUT IT JUST WON’T HAPPEN. WE KNOW PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALMOST DEDICATED THEIR LIVES TO LOOKING YOUNG. AFTER A WHILE IT BECOMES ALMOST EMBARRASSMENT THAT THEY WON’T “ACT THEIR AGE”. AS A MATTER OF FACT, I BELIEVE WE LIFE IN A VERY STRANGE CULTURE. HISTORICALLY, THROUGHOUT THE AGES, IT’S OLD AGE THAT HAS BEEN RESPECTED. ECCLESIASTES TALKS ABOUT THAT, “YOU RISE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE AGED”. IT’S TALK ABOUT HOW GREY HAIR, WHITE HAIR IS A BADGE OF HONOR. BUT IN OUR SOCIETY WE TEND TO PREFER BEING YOUNG, WE MAKE A MAD DASH, IT SEEMS, TOWARD ANYTHING THAT’S YOUNG. FOR EXAMPLE, WE COLOR OUR HAIR, WE WEAR WIGS, AGAIN IN THE WEST PARTICULARLY, WE SEEM OBSESSED WITH HEALTH AND IT’S NOT SO WE WILL HAVE TRUE, PHYSICAL HEALTH, BUT SO WE’LL LOOK YOUNG AND LOOK HEALTHY. IT SEEMS AS IF WE HAVE OUR VALUES COMPLETELY UPSIDE DOWN. I TRY TO IMAGE WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE TO BE IN A CULTURE THAT HAD GENUINE, TRUE BIBLICAL VALUES ABOUT YOUTH AND OLD AGE. I TRY TO IMAGINE, AGAIN, THE ADVERTISEMENTS ON TELEVISION, NEWSPAPER, BILLBOARDS, MAYBE THEY WOULD HAVE SOMETHING THAT YOU COULD WASH AND DO YOUR HAIR AND MAKE IT LOOK GREY SO THAT OTHERS WOULD LOOK UP TO YOU. THAT SEEMS ALMOST BIZARRE BECAUSE OUR VALUES ARE UPSIDE DOWN. THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES SAYS, “OLD AGE IN SOME WAYS, IN MANY WAYS IS TO BE PREFERRED TO YOUTH BECAUSE YOU HAVE THOSE YEARS OF EXPERIENCE AND OF WISDOM”. ON THE OTHER HAND, THIS DOESN’T MEAN THAT YOUTH IS A BAD THING. THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES CAN SOMETIMES TALK ABOUT THE JOYS OF YOUTH. BOTH YOUTH AND OLD AGE ARE GOOD IN THEIR PLACE. YOUTH HAS THAT ENERGY, THAT OPTIMISM. YOUNG PEOPLE SOMETIMES DON’T KNOW ALL THE TROUBLES OF LIFE. THEY HAVEN’T BEEN DROWNED OUT BY ALL THE TROUBLES OF LIFE. OLDER PEOPLE, AGAIN, HAVE THAT WISDOM THAT COMES FROM YEARS OF EXPERIENCE. THERE IS A PLACE FOR BOTH. I THINK THE MAIN POINT, WHEN IT COMES TO YOUTH IN ECCLESIASTES, AS THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES WOULD SAY, “ACT YOUR AGE, BE YOUR AGE, BE HAPPY WITH HOWEVER OLD YOU ARE, DON’T HIDE THE GREY”.

MIKE: WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS AS A CULTURE WE DO WORSHIP YOUTH TO SUCH AN EXTENT? THERE OBVIOUSLY IS SOMETHING DEEPER AT WORK THERE. I KNOW THAT THIS ACTUALLY WILL BE DIFFICULT FOR MANY OF OUR LISTENERS TO RELATE TO BECAUSE THEY LIVE IN CULTURES WHERE AGE AND WISDOM ARE VERY MUCH ACKNOWLEDGED AND APPRECIATE. WHAT IS IT ABOUT THIS CULTURE THAT JUST CAN’T GET THAT RIGHT?

DR. HOLLOWAY: I THINK IT’S BASICALLY FEAR OF DEATH THAT THE OLDER YOU ARE, THE MORE YOU HAVE A PREVIEW OF WHAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU. YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE REMINDED OF YOUR MORTALITY. SOME OF WONDERED, FOR EXAMPLE, WHY IT IS HERE IN THE WEST AND AMERICA, YOUNG PEOPLE WHO HAVE THEIR WHOLE LIFE AHEAD OF THEM TENDS TO DRIVE WITH JUST ABANDON. WHILE OLDER PEOPLE, WHO MAY NOT HAVE BEEN YEARS LEFT, DRIVE SO CAUTIOUSLY. I THINK THE ANSWER IS THAT THE OLDER PEOPLE KNOW THAT THEY ARE THE MORTAL, THEY’VE HAD THE PREVIEW – THAT IS AGING. YOUNG PEOPLE SOMETIMES TEND TO THINK THEY’RE IMMORTAL. AGAIN, OUR CULTURE PUTS SO MUCH EMPHASIS ON APPEARANCE ANYWAY. WE ARE JUST PEOPLE BY APPEARANCE, THAT’S PART OF THIS, TOO. PEOPLE WANT TO LOOK YOUNG SO THAT PEOPLE WILL THINK THEM AS ATTRACTIVE. THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, HAS A WORD TO SAY TO YOUTH. HE SAYS, “REMEMBER YOUR CREATOR IN THE DAY OF YOUR YOUTH”. IT’S NOT THAT HE DESPISES YOUTH, BUT HE SAYS WHAT REALLY BRINGS THOSE YOUTHFUL ENERGETIC PEOPLE MEANING IS TO REMEMBER GOD. THEN HE ALSO SAYS THAT OLD PEOPLE SHOULD REMEMBER WHERE THEY CAME FROM (FROM GOD) AND WHERE THEY’RE GOING (TO GOD).

MIKE: WE CERTAINLY APPRECIATE YOUR SHARING THOSE THOUGHTS WITH US. I ESPECIALLY APPRECIATED YOUR EXAMPLE ABOUT THE YOUNG PEOPLE DRIVING SINCE I JUST HAD THAT DISCUSSION WITH MY TEENAGE DAUGHTER WHO IS NOW DRIVING AND TENDS TO DRIVE A LITTLE BIT FASTER THAN SHE SHOULD. SHE VERY MUCH HAS THAT FEELING OF INVULNERABILITY ABOUT HER. THAT MAKES HER MORE THAN A LITTLE DANGEROUS ON THE ROAD AT TIMES.

DR. HOLLOWAY: I MUST PROTECT BOTH YOUNG AND OLD DRIVERS BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE ONES THAT I TEND TO SEE DRIVING IN SOMEWHAT ERRATIC WAYS.

MIKE: WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME TODAY.

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DR. HOLLOWAY, PART NINE

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY HAS BEEN WITH US FOR SEVERAL DAYS HERE ON KNLS INTRODUCING US TO THE BIBLE BOOK CALLED ECCLESIASTES AND, MORE IMPORTANTLY, TALKING TO US ABOUT THIS PARTICULARLY BOOK’S PRIMARY SUBJECT WHICH IS THE MEANING OF LIFE. DR. HOLLOWAY, THIS HAS BEEN A FASCINATING SERIES OF DISCUSSIONS. WE REALLY VERY MUCH APPRECIATE YOUR TAKING TIME TO JOIN US.

DR. HOLLOWAY: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, I HAVE ENJOYED THIS.

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY, TODAY WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT A SUBJECT THAT I KNOW ALL OF OUR LISTENERS WHO ARE TUNED IN SOMEWHERE HERE IN THE WEST CERTAINLY CAN RELATE TO. I THINK TO SOME DEGREE OUR LISTENERS REGARDLESS WHERE THEY MAY BE WILL BE ABLE TO FIND THIS DISCUSSION INTERESTING. ONE OF THE PLACES THAT MANY OF US GO IN SEARCH FOR A MEANING TO LIFE IS IN THE COMPETITION. WHATEVER THAT COMPETITION MIGHT BE. WE GO TO LOOK FOR SOME MEANING TO LIFE IN OUR ABILITY TO WIN AND WIN REPEATEDLY. THAT CERTAINLY IS A VERY DEFINITE CHARACTERISTIC OF OUR SOCIETY HERE IN THE U.S. WE WANT TO RATE EVERYTHING AND WE WANT TO KNOW WHO IS AT THE TOP, WHO IS NUMBER ONE. WHO IS WINNING? THAT APPARENTLY IS SOMETHING THAT THIS AUTHOR OF THE BIBLE BOOK OF ECCLESIASTES HAD EXPERIENCE WITH AS WELL.

DR. HOLLOWAY: YES. HERE IN AMERICA, OF COURSE, WE LOVE OUR SPORTS AND THAT’S TRUE IN MANY CULTURES. WE PARTICULARLY WANT OUR TEAM TO WIN. SOME SPORTS FIGURE IN THE PAST SAID, “IT’S NOT IF YOU WIN OR LOSE, IT’S HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME”. I THINK MANY IN OUR CULTURE WOULD SAY THAT’S OBVIOUSLY SPOKEN BY A LOSER. WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS WINNING. THAT’S BEEN TRUE REALLY AT LEAST IN SOME PEOPLE’S MINDS THROUGHOUT HISTORY. SO THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES TALKS ABOUT THE IDEA OF WINNING A RACE. WE ALWAYS CHEER FOR THE WINNER. IF WE’RE IN THE RACE WE WANT TO BE A WINNER. NO MATTER WHAT YOUR BACKGROUND OR WHERE YOU ARE, WE HAVE DIFFERENT WAYS OF MEASURING WINNING AND LOSING, NOT JUST IN SPORTS BUT IN LIFE. WE MIGHT MEASURE IT BY HOW MUCH WEALTH A PERSON HAS AS WE TALKED ABOUT A FEW DAYS AGO. YOU MIGHT MEASURE IT AGAIN BY A SENSE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT, BY FAME. BY ALL ACCOUNTS, BY ANY MEASUREMENT THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED IN HIS DAY A WINNER. HE’S WEALTHY. HE’S A RULER. HE HAS EVERYTHING THAT OTHERS WANTED IN LIFE. YET HE HAS INTERESTING THINGS AND DISTURBING THINGS AS HE USUALLY HAS TO SAY, DISTURBING THINGS TO SAY ABOUT WINNING. HE SAYS AT ONE POINT THAT THE RACE IS NOT TO THE SWIFT OR TO PUT IT DIFFERENTLY, THE FASTEST RUNNER DOESN’T ALWAYS WIN. THAT’S KIND OF DISAPPOINTING TO THOSE OF US WHO THINK OF OURSELVES AS SWIFT, AS FAST, AND AS PEOPLE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT. YET IT’S TRUE OR WE’VE KNOWN PEOPLE WHO EARLY IN LIFE SEEM LIKE FOR SURE THEY WOULD BE WINNERS AND HAD EVERYTHING GOING FOR THEM. THEY HAD INTELLIGENCE, WISDOM, MAYBE WEALTH, GOOD STANDING IN THE SOCIETY, GOOD FAMILY CONNECTIONS. YET THEY DIDN’T WIN, THEY ENDED UP AS LOSERS IN LIFE. SO ECCLESIASTES REMINDS US THAT WE DON’T REALLY HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL OF WHETHER WE WIN OR LOSE IN LIFE. I THINK HE ALSO REMINDS US THAT MAYBE OUR STANDARDS OF WINNING AND LOSING ARE NOT GOD’S STANDARDS OF WINNING AND LOSING.

MIKE: IF I MIGHT AS I HAVE SEVERAL TIMES DURING THE LAST FEW DAYS AND TAKE A MOMENT AND PLAY THE DEVIL’S ADVOCATE. ARE YOU SUGGESTING THEN THAT IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE TO EXCEL? IS IT NOT APPROPRIATE TO DO YOUR BEST? IS IT NOT APPROPRIATE TO ACHIEVE AS MUCH AS YOU ARE CAPABLE OF?

DR. HOLLOWAY: AGAIN, I THINK SCRIPTURE CALLS US TO DO OUR BEST, BUT TO DO IT FOR GOD AND NOT FOR OUR OWN SENSE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT. NOT THINKING OF OURSELVES AS WINNERS. I ALSO THINK THAT SCRIPTURE SAYS WE DON’T KNOW THE SCORE. THAT’S THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WE HAVE AND THAT CERTAINLY IS A POINT OF ECCLESIASTES. FROM A HUMAN POINT OF VIEW, FROM AN EARTHLY POINT OF VIEW, WE THINK SOMETIMES WE CAN PICK OUT WHO THE WINNERS ARE AND WHO THE LOSERS ARE. BUT ULTIMATELY GOD IS THE SCOREKEEPER AND HE’S THE ONE WHO KNOWS OUR HEARTS. HE’S THE ONE WHO ULTIMATELY WILL SAY WHETHER WE WIN OR LOSE. THIS METAPHOR THAT ECCLESIASTES USES OF THE RACE SHOWS UP AGAIN IN SCRIPTURE. IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE APOSTLE PAUL TALKS ABOUT NOT WINNING THE RACE, BUT FINISHING THE RACE. THE BOOK OF HEBREWS URGES CHRISTIANS TO KEEP RUNNING THE RACE OF FAITH AND TO LOOK TO JESUS AS ONE WHO FINISHED THE RACE AHEAD OF US. THE IDEA OF FINISHING KIND OF CHANGES THINGS. IT’S NOT THAT I WIN AND THAT I’M A BIT BETTER THAN OTHERS ARE, IT’S THAT I CONTINUE TO LIVE THAT DAILY LIFE OF OBEDIENCE WITH GOD. THAT’S HARD TO DO SOMETIMES – TO PUT ONE FOOT IN FRONT OF THE OTHER AND CONTINUE THAT RACE OF FAITH. THE WRITER OF ECCLESIASTES KIND OF SUMMARIZES WHAT IT REALLY MEANS TO WIN. I THINK THE VERY END OF THE BOOK WHERE HE SAYS; “NOW ALL HAS BEEN HEARD, HERE’S THE CONCLUSION OF THE MATTER. FEAR GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN.” IF WE WANT TO KNOW, AGAIN, THE MEANING OF LIFE AND WHAT IT MEANS TO ULTIMATELY WIN, THAT’S FOUND WITH GOD WHO KNOWS OUR HEARTS AND THE ONE WHO KNOWS THE SCORE AND IF WE FEAR HIM AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS AND KEEP THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. THEN ULTIMATELY WE WILL BE WINNERS EVEN THOUGH IN THIS LIFE IT IS TRUE WE MAY NOT. WE MAY, LIKE JESUS HIMSELF, LIKE PAUL, BE THOUGHT OF AS LOSERS AND NOT WINNERS. BUT ULTIMATELY WE’LL BE WITH GOD.

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY, OUR TIME IS ALMOST GONE. BEFORE I LET YOU GO, I’D LIKE FOR YOU TO TAKE A MOMENT AND DEFINE JUST WHAT MEANING MEANS FROM THE CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE. I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FASCINATED BY THE COMMENTS OF JESUS ON THIS SUBJECT. IN FACT, NOT TOO LONG AGO, RECORDS A SERIES OF MESSAGES LIKE THIS WITH ONE OF YOUR COLLEAGUES AND WE ENTITLED THAT SERIES, “THE UPSIDE DOWN KINGDOM”. THIS IS BECAUSE JESUS SO VERY OFTEN TURNED CONVENTIONAL WISDOM ON ITS HEAD, IF YOU WILL. HE DID A VERY GOOD JOB DEFINING WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A WINNER WHICH WAS VERY MUCH THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT MOST OF US WOULD THINK. CAN YOU TAKE JUST A MOMENT TO DEFINE IN PRACTICAL TERMS WHAT IT MEANS FROM A CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE TO BE A WINNER?

DR. HOLLOWAY: I THINK MANY TIMES GOD’S VALUES ARE THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF OURS AND EVEN OUR CULTURES AND THAT CULTURE BECOMES SO MUCH A PART OF US. I THINK THAT’S WHY ECCLESIASTES SEEMS LIKE SUCH A STRANGE BOOK BECAUSE IT CALLS THOSE VALUES TO QUESTION. IT’S WHY JESUS SHOULD BE THOUGHT OF AS SUCH A STRANGE PERSON. WHO CAN SAY THINGS LIKE THE REALLY HAPPY PERSON, THE ONE WHO IS TRULY BLESSED IS THE ONE WHO IS POOR, OR THE ONE WHO MOURNS. THIS IS IN THE PART OF THE BIBLE THAT WE CALL THE BEATITUDES IN THE GOSPEL OF MATTHEW. SO JESUS SAYS NOT TO BE SO CONCERNED WITH WINNING IN THIS LIFE. LEAVE BEHIND YOURSELF AND YOUR DESIRES AND SEEK GOD AND HIS KINGDOM. THAT’S WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A WINNER. IF WE TRULY SEEK GOD WITH ALL OUR HEART THEN HE PROMISED THAT HE IS NOT FAR FROM US, THAT WE WILL FIND HIM AND THAT WE WILL BE WITH HIM FOREVER. THAT’S REALLY WHAT IT MEANS TO WIN.

MIKE: DR. HOLLOWAY, I HATE TO LET YOU GO, BUT YOU HAVE BEEN VERY GENEROUS WITH YOUR TIME IN BEING WITH US SO MANY DAYS OVER THE LAST WEEK. WE VERY MUCH APPRECIATE THAT. YOU HAVE BEEN VERY GRACIOUS.

DR. HOLLOWAY: THANK YOU. I HOPE, AGAIN, GOD WILL BLESS THOSE WHO HEAR THIS MESSAGE AND HOPE THIS POINTS YOU TO SCRIPTURE WHERE YOU CAN HEAR THE VOICE OF GOD.

MIKE: LET ME MENTION TO OUR FRIENDS THAT IF YOU HAVE ENJOYED TODAY’S DISCUSSION WITH DR. HOLLOWAY, THERE IS A LOT MORE WHERE THAT CAME FROM. WE HAVE RECORDED ALL OF OUR VISITS WITH DR. HOLLOWAY AND PLACED THEM ON AN AUDIOCASSETTE TAPE TOGETHER AND WOULD BE HAPPY TO SEND THAT TO YOU FREE AND WITHOUT OBLIGATION. JUST WRITE TO US AT STATION KNLS, ANCHOR POINT, ALASKA 99556 USA. ALSO WE HAVE JUST A FEW COPIES OF DR. HOLLOWAY’S BOOK WHICH IS ENTITLED “THE MAIN THING, A NEW LOOK AT THE ECCLESIASTES” AND WOULD BE PLEASED TO SEND THAT FREE AND WITHOUT OBLIGATION AS WELL. JUST WRITE TO US HERE AT STATION KNLS FOR YOUR FREE COPY. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO CONTACT US VIA THE INTERNET, OUR E-MAIL ADDRESS IS KNLS@AOL.COM.

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