Bible Scholar Dr. Marty Bell of Belmont University visited in the New Life Station's Studio "B" to introduce KNLS listeners to Bible characters who enjoyed the life changing experience of meeting Jesus Face to Face.  His comments follow.  Please note the copyright notice at the bottom of the page.

Please jump to one of the following:

• Jesus meets a religious leader.
• Jesus meets a woman of another culture.
• Jesus meets a man hated by his neighbors.
• Jesus meets an adulterous woman.
• Jesus meets a wealthy young man.
• A resurrected Jesus meets one of His disciples.
• A resurrected Jesus meets doubting Thomas.
• A resurrected Jesus appears to men on the road.
• Jesus meets a Roman soldier.
• Jesus meets with His family members.
• Jesus meets a woman with a sick child.
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PART #ONE

Mike: As we begin this series, I'd like to begin with what some refer to as one of the hard sayings of Jesus, and that's what he had to say during his face to face visit with a man named Nicodemus in the 3rd chapter of the Bible book of John.

Marty: Well, Mike, this is certainly one of the most interesting stories that we encounter in the New Testament. Nicodemus was a religious leader of the Jewish people, and Jesus had been ministering for some time. Nicodemus wanted to talk to Jesus, but he was afraid to have a personal encounter during the daylight hours, because he was afraid that, in some way, that would cost him with other religious leaders. He did not want to be identified in that kind of way, but he was desperate to talk with Jesus, so he comes to him at night. Obviously Nicodemus had some high regard for Jesus, because he refers to him as rabbi, or teacher, so it was not as if he were some sort of enemy, but he didn't feel he could risk having that sort of public association at this time. Jesus, very quickly, gets to the heart of the matter. When he says to Nicodemus, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above." Or it may mean, "Born again." Nicodemus was very puzzled by this. What did Jesus mean, how can you be born after you have grown old? And Nicodemus asked what seems to be a very logical question. "Can you enter a second time into your mother's womb and be born?" And Jesus begins to explain to Nicodemus that he's talking about a different kind of birth. Jesus says, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit. What is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit. Don't be astonished that I said to you that you must be born from above." Well I think Mike, what's going on here is Jesus is trying to establish that, just as surely as physical birth is a normal part of life, spiritual birth can also be a possibility and if we are going to enter into the kingdom of God, we must be born, not simply physically, but we must also be born spiritually, that is to have an encounter with God. Now Nicodemus was somewhat puzzled by this, and Jesus responded by saying that, "The wind blows wherever it wants to blow." No one has ever seen the wind, and yet we all know that it is very real...Go out on windy day and we can feel it. Sometimes it makes us want to close our eyes because it blows debris in our eyes, or we can hear it as it blows through our ears, if its a cold wind, it may make us want to put on some extra clothing, or if it's a hot wind, it may make us want to dress more appropriately for that kind of weather. I think Jesus is trying to say there are realities that we cannot see, but nevertheless, they are very real, like the wind. And so, in this particular story, Jesus is trying to emphasize that, while we don't see the spirit world, it's very real, and if we intend to enter into the kingdom of God, we must have this spiritual birth that comes from God. Nicodemus was very puzzled by this, and he said, "How can these things be so?" And Jesus said, "Aren't you a teacher of Israel? Don't you understand these sorts of things?" And I think what was happening in that day was, many of the teachers had gotten away from this very basic principle that there is a spiritual life that's invisible, and that relationship with God is not just about rules and regulations, but it's about somehow, being able to encounter God. That only occurs through a spiritual birth.

Mike: Marty, how wonderful that we serve a living God that is so interested in having a relationship with us and is constantly reminding us that there is more to this life than we can see and touch and put a name it. Thank you very much for sharing those insights and for talking to us about this face to face visit Jesus had with Nicodemus.

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PART #TWO

Mike: Marty, I'm looking forward to your comments today concerning a face to face meeting Jesus had with a Samaritan woman at the sight of a well on a particular day as he travelled in her town. Now this passage has always been a special favorite of mine because it is so rich with meaning and because it is the longest single recorded conversation Jesus held.

Marty: Well Mike, this certainly is an interesting story. There are a couple of things I think make this particularly interesting. The culture in which Jesus lived was one in which men did not address women publicly. Wives and daughters were only to be seen by their husbands or fathers. In many parts of the world today, women still live in that kind of existence. Some of out listeners may know that in the middle east today, there are cultures in which women still wear a veil and are not able to be seen publicly. What is remarkable in this story is that Jesus would dare to challenge that cultural norm and address a woman. But there is another issue here, too. Jesus was a Jew, and this woman was from Samaria. Now Samaria was a region that was between the Biblical land known as Judea and another place known as Galilee. There in Samaria lived a group of people who were despised by the Jews. They were related, but the Jews considered them a sort of mongrel people because they had intermarried with people who were outside of the Jewish tradition. So in that day, it was very common for Jews to have disdain for these Samaritans, and vice versa, for Samaritans not to like Jews because they had been treated so poorly. Not only is Jesus breaking a cultural norm by speaking to a woman, but he is breaking another cultural norm by speaking to a woman who happens to be a Samaritan. So in this story, Jesus' disciples have gone off into a town and Jesus is left along by this well when a woman comes along. Jesus shocks the woman, in some ways, when he speaks to her, and immediately the woman is drawn to the conversation that they have. Jesus asks her, "Give me a drink." And she says, "How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink from a woman of Samaria? Jews don't share things in common with Samaritans." Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, 'Give me a drink', you would have asked him and he would have given you living water." This woman assumed that he was talking about a running source of water from under the earth. So the woman said, "Sir, you have no bucket and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? Are you greater that our ancestor, Jacob, who gave us the well with his sons and his flocks who drank from it?" Jesus said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but those who drink of the water I give them will never be thirsty. The water I give will become in them a spring gushing up to eternal life." The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I may never be thirsty or have to keep coming here to draw water." Well, the conversation goes on, but essentially what Jesus is trying to say to this woman is that he is talking about something that is not physical water, but he is talking about something that replenishes the spirit. And as the conversation goes on, it becomes clear to this woman that Jesus is not talking about water that comes out of the ground from a well, but he is talking about something that nourishes life. I think something that is important for us to see is, just as we have to have water to live, the one thing that we all have to have in order to continue our physical existence, we also have to be nourished spiritually, and as sure as the physical body needs water, so the spirit needs its own kind of fuel. The scripture teaches us very clearly that it's only through Jesus Christ, God's son, that we can have this living water that satisfies our soul's deepest longing. So, I think in this story, we see that it's available to everyone. Jesus very clearly did not deny this to this person because she happened to be a woman, nor did he deny it because she happened to be a Samaritan. It says something about the nature of God's love. It includes all people. This living water is for everyone.

Mike: Marty, an aspect of this story I've always been struck by is how this woman began this face to face meeting with Jesus opening hostile to him and by the end of their time together, she was so convinced that he was the Christ, that she was willing to go back into town and try to convince her neighbors and friends and relatives to come out to meet this remarkable man. Tell us about that.

Marty: Well, I'm glad you gave me that opportunity, Mike. I think one of the things that's interesting about this story, and it's going to be true about all of the stories that I'm going to be talking about, Jesus saw into the very heart of this woman. And that is something that not anyone else had been able to do. Even though she was hostile toward Jesus, when he saw into her heart and when he spoke to the needs of her heart, and understood the special problems and circumstances of her life, she was moved by that deep compassion. And I think that is where God's grace really begins to speak to us. Grace is unmerited favor, it's also a thing of beauty. To be able to do as Jesus did, to see the heart of a person, and to speak to that person's deepest needs, is a very special thing. For those of us who are Christians, I think this is the model of the way that we need to respond to those who may be hostile towards us, because as we see into their hearts and we speak to their heart's needs, it allows them to be able to look into their own hearts, and have the kind of repentance that Jesus calls for, which means to have a complete change of mind, a complete change of heart, and it's obvious that that's what happened to this woman.

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PART #THREE

Mike: Today we are going to look at a story that is a favorite of children all over. I know that I grew up hearing and loving this story. it is found in the 19th chapter of the Bible book called Luke. It shares the story of Jesus meeting a small man with a very large heart named Zaccheus.

Marty: Mike, I think this is a very wonderful story. This gospel that we call Luke's gospel has a special angle. It wants to show us that Jesus is the Savior for all the world, that all of those person's who have sometimes been despised by others are cared for deeply by Jesus. Now in this story, Jesus enters a village, a town of that time called Jericho. In Jericho lived this tiny man that you referred to as Zaccheus. He was a tax collector. Now I don't suppose people have ever enjoyed paying taxes, but in Jesus' day, there was a particular displeasure about this situation because, rather than charging fair rates, tax collectors earned their living by being able to convince people of what their tax burden should be. In other words, maybe the tax burden should be a certain amount, but the tax collector would say it's twice that amount, with the intention of keeping half of the money for himself. So depending on his skills of salesmanship or intimidation, the tax collector could get alot more money. This was common knowledge among the people, so they despised these people. This was probably the vocation that was seen in the worse light in that particular society.

Mike: It was also bad because he was representing an occupying force in the Jewish homeland.

Marty: Absolutely, the Romans occupied the land at that time by force, and Zaccheus was cooperating with them, so you are exactly right, Mike. He was seen as a traitor, not at all liked by the people. But it's interesting, alot of talk had occurred about this Jesus and so as he entered Jericho, Zaccheus wanted to try and catch a glimpse of him. Because he was short, he couldn't see above people, and so he ran and climbed up a tree. As Jesus was passing by, he happened to look up and saw Zaccheus and he said something rather remarkable to him, Mike. "Zaccheus, hurry and come down because I have to stay at your house." Now we don't have any record that Jesus had ever encountered this man before, but Jesus knew who he was just as the Scripture makes very clear, Jesus knows who all of us are. Jesus told Zaccheus that he needed to come down because Jesus planned to eat with him. Now that was remarkable because you only ate with those people that you considered to be your friends or those persons that you considered to be worthy of your attention. Zaccheus had come to believe that everybody hated him. Maybe there are some of our listeners out there who have had a similar experience, who believe that no one really cares about them, or that they are despised, but Scripture makes it very clear that all of the people in the world, like Zaccheus, are loved by Jesus. When people saw what happened, they grumbled, they weren't very happy, and they said, "You mean Jesus is going to eat with a sinner?" But it's very clear that Jesus enjoyed associating with those that others sometimes called sinners. Not that Jesus condoned what they did, but Jesus recognized that all people are in need of help. He said on another occasion, "It's sick people who really need a doctor." And Jesus considered himself a physician, or a doctor of the soul. Zaccheus was so moved that Jesus could see into his heart, was so moved that Jesus spoke to him with directness, that Zaccheus actually took half of his possessions and gave to poor people. And anyone that he had cheated, Zaccheus decided that he would pay back four times as much. I think this is a wonderful example of what happens when one truly encounters Jesus. Character is transformed, that's what conversion is all about. So Jesus responds by saying, "Today, salvation has come to this house." And Zaccheus encounters this wonderful experience with his life, by knowing the Savior who came for ALL persons, even the despised people of this world.

Mike: Marty, thanks for sharing that remarkable story with us. I have always been curious about what it was Jesus said to Zaccheus as they ate together that had such a profound affect on him. Perhaps nothing in particular, perhaps just, as you mentioned, he was willing to associate with someone that was so despised by everyone else.

Marty: I think that's exactly right, Mike. The scripture doesn't tell us what was said, but the fact that Jesus was available to him and befriended him reminds us that he is the Savior that always moves in our behalf and speaks in our behalf and loves us.

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PART #FOUR

Mike: Today, Marty, we want to talk about a story our listening friends, I'm sure, will find very poignant, a sad story in many respects, a very triumphant story in other respects. A face to face encounter that Jesus had with an adulterous woman. This story is recorded in the 8th chapter of the Bible book called John. Tell us about this encounter.

Marty: Thanks Mike. This is a very interesting story. In the story, a group of scribes and pharisees, religious leaders of Jesus' day, brought a woman, who it says had been caught in the very act of adultery. Interesting to me Mike, is the fact that the man is not brought along, simply the woman. Which may show us there was a double standard at that time. But these religious leaders hopes to trap Jesus. They were saying to him that, according to their religious law, the Law of Moses, that a woman should be stoned to death, that is they literally would throw rocks at her until she died. They wanted to know what Jesus had to say. Their angle on this was, they were hoping to show Jesus was in contradiction to their religious teaching. But Jesus did something that's truly remarkable. First of all, he stooped down and he wrote with his finger on the ground. No one, to this day, knows exactly what Jesus wrote. Many have pondered, did Jesus write one of the commandments in their law?, what did Jesus perhaps write? We don't know. But we do know that as Jesus was being questioned by them, not saying a word at first, he stood up and said something very remarkable. "Let anyone who is among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone." And as each person pondered that statement of Jesus, beginning with the oldest and ending with the youngest, one by one, her accusers walked away, because they came to realize the hypocrisy of what they had done. They wanted this woman to be killed, but each of them had also done something that had broken their own religious law. So finally in the scene, Jesus is left alone with this woman standing before him. And Jesus asked the woman, "Woman, where are your accusers?" She replies, "They are not here." Jesus says to her, "I don't condemn you either. Go your way. And from now on, don't sin again. And Mike, I think there is something very interesting in this story. First of all, we do see the hypocrisy of the religious leaders of Jesus' day. We also see here that Jesus does not condemn this woman in the ultimate sense for what she did. Jesus says, "Neither do I condemn you." But he also says, "Do not sin again." And I think we see something at the very heart of what the gospel of Jesus Christ is all about. No matter what we may have done, no matter what vows we may have broken, God is willing to forgive us. jesus did not come to condemn the world, as he says in John's gospel, but to save the world. That doesn't mean that he condones all of our actions. He doesn't say to this woman, "Go away and live as you were living before, live however you please." But he does give her another opportunity to experience God's love and to find a new and meaningful life. I think this is a marvelous story. I think it says that we should not be too quick to condemn others, that we should have compassion even as Jesus had compassion. Maybe some one of our listeners out there is in a situation which you feel has violated some law that you should not have violated, and that may be true, but remember, God loves you and cares for you. He doesn't ultimately condemn you. If you confront the Savior, he gives you an opportunity to find his love and grace.

Mike: Marty, how wonderful that we serve a God that can strike such a wonderful balance between grace (I forgive you for the wrongs that you have done) and truth (go and don't sin again). We serve a wonderful Lord.

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PART #FIVE

Mike: This story about a face to face meeting with Jesus has a rather sad ending. A story recorded in the 19th chapter of the Bible book called Matthew. We are talking today about a wealthy young man who just did not understand the relationship between the good deeds that we perform and God's grace.

Marty: Mike, I think that's exactly right. Actually, in this story, this young man comes to Jesus and asks a question. "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" That wasn't just that man's question. That was a question that people have been asking for centuries and probably some in our audience are even asking today. What do I have to do in order to be able to have everlasting life? Well, Jesus turns around and asks him a question. "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." Well, at that point the young man responds with yet another question. "Which ones?" And Jesus replies by listing several of what are sometimes called The Ten Commandments. You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, love your neighbor as yourself. Actually, there is not anything wrong with any of those things that are listed, as a matter of fact, those are very sound principles of life, and yet, there's a sense, Mike, in which this young man was playing a game. He was trying to figure out what is the very least I can do and somehow be able to enter into everlasting life. And I think, with that attitude, he has missed the whole point. Jesus tries to confront him with what it really takes to be in relationship with God. The young man says, "I kept all of these things, what do I lack?" And Jesus responds very simply, "If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions, give your money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come and follow me." And scripture records that, when the young man heard that, he went away grieving because he had many possessions. Now I think he went away grieving, not because of what he was going to have to give up, I think he went away grieving because he chose not to give up his possessions. I think we need to be very careful, Mike, in this story. I don't think Jesus is trying to say, "Oh you need to go and do this one other thing that you have failed to do up to this point.", as if there is some sort of list you have to do. What Jesus, I think, is trying to say is, that to be his disciple, we have to be willing to give all of our life to him. I don't think God keeps a list, and if we have enough of the right things done, and if we didn't do too many of the bad things, that we are going to somehow get into heaven. I think what we see here is that it means a radical and complete commitment of our life to God. Some people allow their possessions to stand in their way. Some people allow their families to stand in their way. Some people allow their friends to stand in their way. But whatever it is that stands between us and a relationship with the real God, the genuine God, that becomes an idol for us. That becomes something that we worship. Mike, I thin it's interesting that the word "Worship" we have in our language goes back to an old word that means "worth ship", what is something's value. Ultimately, what Jesus is trying to say is, we must value God above all else. That which we value the most is that which we worship.

Mike: How wonderful, Marty, that we serve a God that doesn't just want a small part of us, doesn't just want our devotion one day a week or two, doesn't just want some small piece of our lives, but wants all that we have to offer. And as a glorious God, is worthy of everything we have to offer. Thanks for sharing with us.

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PART #SIX

Mike: Marty, today we are going to be talking about an encounter, I must confess, I've always had a great deal of difficulty with, something that I just do not understand. In the last chapter of the Bible book called John, there's recorded a conversation that Jesus had with one of his disciples, Peter. Can you shed some light on, what is for me at least, a rather murky passage.

Marty: I'll try to do that, Mike. It's not an easy passage in some ways. This story occurs after the resurrection of Jesus. Jesus has died on the cross and he has been raised to life and is now appearing to his apostles, that is those who are closest to him in his ministry. Now, throughout the gospels, it's clear the Peter has been a primary leader. On one occasion when Jesus asked, "Who do you say that I am?", Peter is the one who says, "You are the Christ." And almost immediately, Jesus begins to talk about suffering and the need for his death on the cross, and how, when he goes to Jerusalem, he will be opposed by the religious leaders and will ultimately die. Peter responds by saying, essentially, "Not as long as I'm alive! I'm going to take care of you, Lord! That will never happen!" And Jesus has to take Peter aside and has to explain to him that being the Messiah involves all of this, and throughout the story as Jesus moves closer to his death, we continue to have Peter saying things about how he will stand up and be loyal to Jesus, but what we find happens is actually, in that moment of truth, Peter denies that he even knows Jesus. The very night that Jesus is taken in arrest, on three occasions, Peter denies that he even knows Jesus, and at last, as day is breaking and he hears a rooster crow, he is reminded that Jesus had predicted that this is what would happen and he goes out and weeps bitterly. But I think in this story Mike, we see something about the redemptive nature of Jesus. That Jesus always gives us opportunities to redeem our lives through his grace and his love. Here, rather than giving up on a person who had seemingly been a traitor, Jesus, after his resurrection, talks to Peter about his responsibility. Jesus asked him, "Now, Simon Peter, do you love me more than these?" (meaning the other apostles) And he said, "Yes Lord, you know that I love you." Peter wants to affirm his love and Jesus' response is, "Feed my lambs." And he asks a second time, "Simon, do you love me?" And he said, "Yes Lord, you KNOW that I love you!"And Jesus said to him, "Tend to my sheep." And Jesus said a third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" And Peter at this point felt hurt because he had said to him a third time 'Do you love me?', and he said, "Lord, you know everything. You KNOW that I love you!" And Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep." Now Mike, this is interesting because, three different times, Jesus asked Peter, 'Do you love me?' And three times Peter said, 'You know that I love you!' And Jesus said three times, 'Feed my sheep.' Now, that confuses alot of people. Let me tell you what I think this means. I think Jesus recognizes Peter's potential as a leader. I think he realizes Peter is the natural leader of that group. But the only way we can show our love for Jesus, once Jesus is no longer physically with us, and in a short period of time he would have left Peter to ascend to be with his Father, is to love the people that Jesus came to minister to and to die for. I think the story is reminding Peter, and it's reminding all of us, that we have an obligation to show our love to Jesus by loving one another. I don't think this means that Peter was chosen above all of the other apostles to be the sole leader of the church. I think it simply means that those that those who recognize they are gifted and who want to love their Lord must learn to express that by loving others, by feeding the flock of God. Jesus saw himself as a shepherd to his flock, and so he is saying to Peter, "Now you take that responsibility. I'm no longer physically going to be here. You are physically here. Show the same kind of love that I show.

Mike: Jesus repeating that question 3 times - do you think that was just a tool that he used to capture Peter's attention and be sure that he would always remember?

Marty: I think so Mike. Peter almost reaches the point of exasperation. The third time - "You KNOW that I love you, Lord!" But I think Jesus really does want him to remember this, and I think we who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ need to be reminded that it's our love for others that truly represents how much we love our Lord.

Mike: What a remarkable story. Thank you for shedding a little light on that for me, if not for our listening friends.

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PART #SEVEN

Mike: Now today, Marty, we are going to study a face to face meeting that one of the 12 disciples, Thomas by name, had with Jesus following Jesus' resurrection. I have to tell you that this passage in the 20th chapter of the book of John makes me very uncomfortable, perhaps because I feel certain I would react to this situation just as badly as Thomas did.

Marty: Down through the centuries, Mike, Thomas has been given an adjective, "Doubting" Thomas. For many Christians, Thomas is seen as the one who somehow could not believe in the way that he should have believed. But what I want to say is, I think we need to look at this story a little more carefully. I would like to give a defense, if I could of "Doubting" Thomas. On the first day of the week when Jesus was raised from the dead, he appeared to the apostles. It just so happened that Thomas was not there. We don't know why Thomas was not there. Maybe he was one of those persons who needs privacy to deal with his grief. But for whatever reason, Thomas was not with the group, and when the group later responded by saying, "We have seen the Lord, we have seen him alive!", Thomas simply could not believe what they said. Rather than seeing Thomas as a doubter and one who simply lacked faith, I like to think of Thomas in many ways as a realist. He wanted to see evidence for himself, and so there is the very famous passage where Thomas says, "Unless I can put my hands where the nail marks were, unless I can see the wounds, I won't believe this!" A week later, a week after the resurrection of Jesus, Thomas has an opportunity because one week after the first appearance, Jesus appears again. This time Thomas is with the group, and Jesus says, "Put your finger here and see my hands, reach out your hand and put it in my side. Don't doubt, but believe." Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" And Mike, that is the most powerful affirmation of faith we find from any disciple on the New Testament. Thomas is the only one who point-blank addresses Jesus as "my Lord and my God." I think Thomas represents what many of us are like, that is, he has to experience in his own way the resurrected Christ. No one can meet Jesus in exactly the same kind of way. Jesus responds after Thomas has declared him Lord and God, "Have you believed because you have seen me; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe." I think, alot of times, people have come to hold that over Thomas' head and interpret Jesus to say, "Well, Thomas, now you will believe because you have seen all of this." I don't think that is what Jesus is trying to say. I think Jesus is trying to say to Thomas, 'You have had an opportunity to see what others will not see. You go now and share with them about the nail scarred hands, you go and proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ, you go and share what this means in you own experience.' So Thomas is a realist, he has to encounter Jesus in his own way. And it may be, Mike, that there are some in our audience, they have difficulty believing some of the claims of Christianity. Doubt is not always a terrible thing, doubt can lead us to faith. In this situation, Thomas had to experience this reality for himself. I can't convince someone, out of my reasoning, that Jesus Christ is who he claimed to be. But I do believe that Jesus Christ is able to work in our lives to convince us of the reality, and when it's our time, like Thomas, our doubts will turn to belief.

Mike: Over the centuries, people have denigrated people of faith for being individuals they say are willing to accept the stories of the divinity of Christ without any evidence whatsoever, merely on faith, as the expression is used. As the story of Thomas points out, that is just not the case. People of faith are people who expect a degree of confirmation of what they are asked to believe, just as Thomas did.

Marty: Exactly Mike. And one of the things I want to say is, faith is not something that's exceptional. When we ask someone to believe, we are not asking the impossible. Everyday I get into my automobile and drive. In the part of the country where I live, there are alot of hills. When I come to the top of a hill, I don't stop my car, open the door and get out and look down the other side to make sure there is a road for me to drive on. I assume the road is going to continue. I have faith that the road is going to be there. And everyday, we all make faith decisions. When we talk about the story of Jesus, and we talk about the records in the gospel, we are not talking about something that's irrational. We are talking about something that has alot of reason. No, we can't prove in a scientific way all of these things. But just as we live much of life everyday with faith, so we must learn to live in faith with these things.

Mike: Marty, apparently this encounter had a profound effect on Thomas. I understand that, at least church tradition, no fact available for this, but, church tradition suggests that Thomas was probably the one of the apostles that went toward China and may have spread Christianity into China. Are you familiar with that history?

Marty: Yes, that's exactly right. We do know that for many centuries, Thomas has been associated with Christianity in India. There was an account of a certain king in India that Thomas shared the good news of Jesus Christ, and for many years it was assumed that this was a fable. But in the 20th century, archaeologists uncovered records that bore the name of this king, confirming that such a person did live, and thereby giving some verification to the story.

Mike: Well, as we have seen over and over again as we look at each new individual in this series, a face to face encounter with Jesus was a life changing event. Thanks for sharing with us today.

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PART #EIGHT

Mike: Marty, today we will be looking at a passage that just thrills my heart every time I read it. We discuss a face to face encounter 2 men had with Jesus following his resurrection on the road between Jerusalem and the town of Ammaeus. Tell us about this amazing story.

Marty: Mike, the most interesting thing about this story, I recall, this is the only face to face encounter when those that are talking with Jesus did not realize with whom they were talking. So I want us to spend a little time with this story. Jesus had been crucified. There was a great deal of grief with his followers. They, in many ways, assumed that all they had worked for for the past few years had simply vanished. Undoubtedly downtrodden, they undoubtedly had given in to the worst fears that had confronted them in their lives. Unbeknownst to these two who were walking on the road in the story, Jesus had risen from the dead. The resurrected Christ comes up along beside them on the road. Now we have to understand that this was a time when there was not modern transportation, and all travelling was done by foot, and so it was not uncommon when you were walking along going someplace to be joined by someone to enjoy the conversation along the way. As Jesus comes up, they are discussing the events of the recent days, all about the crucifixion. And Jesus, who to them was a complete stranger, asks about these events, and they are rather amazed that he doesn't know about them. They thought this business about Jesus of Nazareth was pretty widespread, and so, as someone who seemingly does not know the story, they begin to talk to Jesus, ironically about Jesus. As they talk, Jesus asks them more and more questions, and they are talking to him about what is happening, and suddenly the conversation begins to shift. They notice that this stranger seems to be saying things that are strangely encouraging to them, and somehow, there's something about the words that touch their very being. And like many of the stories that we talked about earlier in the week, Jesus, although they did not recognize that it is Jesus at this point, sees into the very heart of their concern, and speaks to the heart of their concern. Mike, I think anytime that Jesus encountered people, he spoke to their heart. So many times, we speak about things that are trivial, that don't really matter, and I think one of the things that Christians can learn out of this experience - we need to be able to see deeply into the hearts of people, and to speak to the hearts of people, and that's where what the Bible calls grace occurs, when a real gift is given to us. And so this stranger to them "gifts" them with his presence, and somehow they find that very comforting. As they come near a village and it's time to eat, they urge the stranger to stay with them and it's while they are at the table breaking the bread that they are about to eat that, suddenly, they recognize Jesus, and even as they recognize him, he disappears from their midst. And they say to each other, "Weren't our hearts burning within us even as he was talking to us on the road? While he was opening the scriptures to us?" And so, in their excitement, they return to Jerusalem, they found 11 of the apostles of Jesus and other friends, and they declare that they had seen the risen Lord and talked about those encounters. Mike, that brings me to something that is very relevant to us. And that is, God may speak to us at times when we are unaware that it is God speaking to us. The Bible may be more than just words on a page. It may speak to the deepest level of our being about God's love for us and what God has done for us in Jesus Christ. And so, I think we need to prepare ourselves at times to be surprised by the presence of Jesus as he comes to us in unexpected places and unexpected times.

Mike: Marty, isn't it true that all of us who have come to know the Lord and have come to accept him as our Savior have felt our hearts burn within us, and isn't that something that any one of our listening friends can look forward to, that tremendous joy and peace at accepting Jesus as Lord.

Marty: That's right, because the important thing for us today is to recognize that this Jesus who rose is alive and still confronts us and still speaks to us and it may be that even now he speaks to the heart of someone who is out there listening.

Mike: Thank you for those wonderful words and for a remarkable story.

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PART #NINE

Mike: Today's story is about a man who interacted with Jesus without actually seeing him. I also find this passage fascinating because it indicates that God was surprised. Tell us about Jesus' encounter with that Roman centurion in the city of Capernaum as recorded in Luke, chapter 7.

Marty: I'd be happy to do that, Mike. First, let me give a little bit of background and talk about what a centurion was. I think in one of our earlier programs, we talked about the fact that the land in which Jesus lived, Judea, was under Roman occupation during the days in which Jesus lived. A centurion was, literally, the leader of 100 men. That may have been exactly the case, 100 men, or it may have been simply a looser term used figuratively. In any rate, this was a military man, someone who was used to having authority, was accustomed to commanding others, and lived very much according to that kind of lifestyle. And in our story, this centurion, a captain, had a slave that was highly valued. Slavery was practiced during that period of time, it's not acceptable in our modern world, and there are many things in the Bible that would say to us that slavery is not a good thing. And yet Jesus, with all human beings, encountered them where they lived and tried to minister to them in their situation. This slave was very ill; the centurion had a great deal of concern. He had heard about the healing ministry of Jesus; how Jesus had been able to heal the sick, and so messengers were sent to Jesus concerning the slave who was ill. Many of the persons wanted Jesus to do something because they liked this centurion, unlike some of the centurions they had known about. This man was kind and had gained the respect of the Jewish people who were under the occupation of the Romans. In fact, this man, we're told, had even helped to build a synagogue, a Jewish place of worship. Thought that was not his religion, he wanted to help those in whose land he was living. Jesus went along with the messengers that had come, but before he had even gotten to the place where the centurion was, the centurion had a message sent, "Don't trouble yourself, Lord. I'm not worthy to have you come under my roof. Therefore, I didn't presume to come to you. But only speak the word and let my servant be healed." Now, Mike, I think this is absolutely remarkable. This man did not believe he was worthy to entertain Jesus. But he had such faith in what Jesus was able to do, that he assumed that Jesus could simply say the words, and the man would be healed. It's amazing because we're told when Jesus heard about this, that he turned to the crowd and said, "I tell you, I haven't seen this kind of faith, even in Israel." That comment about 'even Israel' indicates to us that this man was not a Jew and did not come from the land of Israel. But Jesus is saying, 'Even among my own people, I haven't seen this kind of faith'. In other words, 'This man assumes that I can do something without having to even be there.' And it was according as the centurion wished; the slave was returned to good health. I want to make an interesting observation here for our listeners. In order to encounter the life-changing presence of Jesus, we do not have to see him physically. Often, people use the excuse, 'Well, if I could only see this physically, in some sort of sense.' We talked about that a little bit earlier when we talked about Thomas. But here we had a man who had enough faith to believe that Jesus could do what he said without having to have his physical presence there. So it is a remarkable situation in many ways.

Mike: Not all of the versions do this, but I was intrigued by the version I read this morning that actually uses the expression that says that Jesus was 'surprised' by this man's faith. I thought that was intriguing that God could be taken by surprise.

Marty: I think that's a very interesting observation that you have made. I think it's basic human nature not to trust that which we cannot see. But there are those individuals who have a remarkable degree of faith. This centurion seems to be one of those. And God honors that kind of faith.

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PART #TEN

Mike: Marty, today we look at a passage that skeptics have pointed to over the centuries as evidence that Jesus was at times very cruel. This is an occasion recorded in the 12th chapter of Matthew, where Jesus' mother and brothers asked to speak to him. Apparently they travelled some distance to get to him, and then asked to speak to him as he is surrounded by followers and hangers-on. What Jesus says in response has often been misunderstood.

Marty: Mike, I'm glad that you brought this story up, that we can discuss it. Let me just say a little bit about the story so that our listeners can have the full context. Jesus is teaching and he is told by someone, "Look, your mother and brothers are outside, they want to speak to you." Jesus replied to the person who brought that news, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" And pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and brothers. For everyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." Now Mike, I think we need to understand some background behind this story. At first it seems rather strange that Jesus would refuse to visit with his mother and brothers who have come to see him. What Jesus wants to make absolutely clear, however, is that he has been called by God for this mission. He has been sent by his heavenly Father to come into the world. Very early on in his ministry, Jesus learned that at times, the course that he had chosen would be a very difficult one. There are times in our lives where we may feel led to do things that our parents have difficulty understanding. And so I think that, after Jesus had gotten involved in his ministry, there were some concerns that his family had. Maybe he was not taking care of himself. Some people have even implied that maybe his family thought that he was crazy in what he was saying. But Jesus wants to make it very clear that he is not going to be dominated by his family, and that in a very real sense, those that do the will of God are his family. Now, there's an earlier story, Mike, as recorded in John's gospel, the first miracle that Jesus does at a wedding, and Jesus' mother tries to get him to do something - by the way, Jesus does eventually does to what she requests - but before Jesus does it, he says essentially, "Woman, my hour has not yet come." Many have thought, "Why would he have referred to his mother simply as 'woman', it seems a very stern sort of thing." But I think it's a case of Jesus having to say very clearly, that no one, not even his mother, not even those closest to him, can divert his attention from what God would have him to do. Very early on in his ministry, right after Jesus was baptized, he was led into the wilderness by the spirit of God, and there he was tempted. For 40 days and nights, he struggled with the temptations that the devil brought to him. There he had to determine that he would follow God's will. And Mike, I believe at that very moment, he realized that it would take him to the cross and the suffering involved, and certainly it would be difficult for others to understand. Now, how does this relate to us? Well, at times it's difficult for us to go against what friends or family may say. I think one of the messages of the Bible is that we ultimately must be true to what God is saying to us. Jesus says that anyone that would love father or mother more than him is not worthy of him. Does that mean Jesus does not want us to love our families? Of course not! But it does mean that we must make our ultimate commitment to God. What Jesus said to his followers, he had to demonstrate in his own life by showing that he would not be dominated by those who, in some way thinking they were doing the best for him, might really not be doing what would be best for him in following God's will.

Mike: Marty, so very easy for us to be distracted in our course by the events of life, by family, friends, by struggles of one kind or another. This story inspires us to stay on the path and to stay focused in our desire to serve God, our Father, and to be his loving children. Thank-you for those insights.

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PART #ELEVEN

Mike: Marty, we want to look at one last character today in what we are referring to as face to face encounters with Jesus. Yesterday we looked at a passage that I mentioned has been used by some to indicate that Jesus was often cruel in his personal dealings with individuals. Today's passage seems to be even more so than the one we looked at yesterday. In this passage for today found in chapter 15 of the Bible book called Matthew, Jesus seems to be even making racial slurs. Tell us about this encounter that Jesus had with this woman.

Marty: Well Mike, this, on the surface, is one of the most difficult passages in the New Testament. And yet, I think if we can get beyond the surface level, it teaches us something very powerful about God's love. And though it may seem that Jesus is giving some sort of racial slur, I think, if we look at it very carefully, we'll find that actually the opposite is true. Let me tell the audience out there what the story is about. Jesus has been ministering and he goes into a region that was occupied by a number of people who were not Jewish. There was a woman in that region who was not Jewish, one of the older inhabitants, a Canaanite woman. That was the name of this land at an earlier time. She cam shouting at Jesus. "Have mercy on me Lord, Son of David! My daughter is tormented by a demon." Obviously this woman was greatly distressed by what was happening with her daughter, but Jesus apparently paid her no attention, and that, I think, is somewhat troublesome to us at first. Finally, the disciples of Jesus said, "Send this woman away! She keeps shouting at us and bothering us!" It's obvious they don't want her around. We might expect Jesus, at this point, to be very compassionate. To say, "Oh no, I will hear this woman." But actually it says in scripture that Jesus said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." Now, Mike, that would seem to imply that he didn't have any concern for people who are not Jews, but let's look a little further. The woman, at that point, knelt before Jesus and said, "Lord, help me." And I think Jesus saw the earnestness and the desperateness of her situation. But still, at that point he said, "It's not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs." It almost seems as if Jesus is saying, "Now would it be right for me to take something from the Jewish people and give it to you?" And I think in almost any culture to refer to someone as a dog is not seen as being a pleasant or very inviting way to confront someone. But she answers in a very surprising way. We talked earlier this week about surprising responses. She says, "Yes Lord, but even dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table." I think what she is saying is, "I understand what you are saying, but all I'm asking for is a crumb. Can't you just spare me a crumb?" And at that point, Jesus is absolutely amazed at her faith and responds, "Woman, your faith is great. Let it be done for you as you wish." And immediately, the Bible says, her daughter is healed. Was Jesus trying to torment or tease this woman? I don't think so. I think what we need to understand is, that Jesus, when he came to earth physically, had a very focused mission. His physical mission was to preach and teach and heal among the Jewish people. Now, that doesn't mean that he had no concern for others. But the Bible tells us that God chose to relate to the people of Israel, to be actually a missionary people to the rest of the world. And I think Jesus, in his earthly ministry came to give the jewish people an opportunity to take up that role of being a light to nations as the prophet Isaiah calls it. But as the gospel of John puts it, "He came to his own and his own received him not. But to as many as did, he gave power to become the sons of God." Now, in Jesus day, by and large, the Jewish people rejected him. But there were those who responded, and within a few short years, the message of Jesus Christ would spread beyond one ethnic group to include all people. As a matter of fact, the resurrected Christ says to his disciples, "You will be my witnesses first in Jerusalem, the capital city of Judea, then Judea, then Samaria, that despised region we talked about earlier, and finally to the utter most parts of the earth." So it's clear that Jesus had a universal concern for all people, but very clearly in this story, jesus is trying to emphasize it - you couldn't do everything, couldn't go to all people and be in all parts of the world, but he intended for his disciples to carry that mission. But, even though Jesus had a planned agenda, when he was confronted by genuine need, he never turned away.

Mike: Marty, I think it might be important for us to say that our comments are in no way intended to denigrate the Jewish people as a people, but that this is just something that we needed to share out of this story as a piece of history. In fact, it could even be seen as one of the evidences that scripture can be relied on in this story as in so many other places in Scripture. There is a gritty realism to the stories that really lends to their credence.

Marty: Absolutely, Mike.

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